Hi Steve, What you'd sent looked GREAT!!! I am sending the revised & final version of HethsNoiseFears_July15.xls. I'm also forwarding, in date order, all of the emails to PSG RE: Heth's noise fears. If there is a way that you'd prefer me to 1st organize them & send, let me know, keeping in mind that for the most part I am technologically challenged. You most definitely will be included amongst other worthy recipients for the next shipment of cookies. Do you, LSWAP's have a preference or are surprises OK? Thanks so much for all of the great work you do to make data like this (and cute poodle pictures) available to so many other people. Best wishes & SPD to the Soberski family from CM & family. Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.1]) by mta005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709200526.HKSE4656.mta005.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:05:26 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc014pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-11674-152-11674-73131-1-1089403526> for mta005.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:05:26 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69JvESk096790; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:57:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69JvDFe096784 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:57:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailbox.bellatlantic.net ([138.88.122.7]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709195712.DSWD18566.out011.verizon.net@mailbox.bellatlantic.net>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:57:12 -0500 Message-ID: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:01:31 -0400 From: franbill@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com" , PSG , "vipoodle@webtv.net" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [138.88.122.7] at Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:57:08 -0500 X-Original-From: franbill@mailbox.bellatlantic.net Cc: Subject: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: franbill@verizon.net List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black SP Heth's horrific reactions. We know that many of you currently deal with this, and some have even arrived at solutions which actually work. What really has me (Bill) upset is that body shakes so violently & his heart pounds so strong against his chest that I fear he will have a heart attack or go into a seizure. The frightened/panicked look in his eyes makes us feel especially helpless. During the months of June-August, the metropolitan Washington, DC area experiences (almost daily) severe thunderstorm activity. The typical 5-day forecast is: "The '3-H's' - Hot, Hazy, Humid followed by late afternoon thunderstorms. The storm cells can produce tornadic like effects. Fireworks are set off by individuals in neighborhoods year round for such events as New Years, High School/College Graduation parties, July 4, big sports events (World Series, Super Bowl, NBA), and of course loud highly-attended parties back yard or neighborhood parties. In addition to the 1-3" firecrackers (which create a loud pop), noiselesss sky rockets, & "fountains", someone who has traveled to North & South Carolina will set off something which can create the noise & destruction of a 1/4" stick of dynamite. Our police are usually occupied with much more serious activity, or arrive too late to stop it. At the 1st faint sound of distant thunder/or explosions, Heth looks up with wild/panic and starts his nervous pacing and running around. When the real noise kicks in, no amount of cuddling will calm him down. OK, so here are some of the things we've tried: 1)The holistic vet-Chinese calming herb pills given over a 30 day period. No Help 2)Valerian Pills-Given 2-3 hours in advance. Does help for the less intense times 3)Valerian Liquid / or Spray-- Acts much more quickly than pills and the earlier it's given, the better. Side effects can be upset/rumbling stomach. 4) Benadryal--He's 51# and we give him 2 pills (50mg) 2-3 hours before the storm to make him sleepy Thid does help if given early enough 4) Physical activity--If we get enough warning (storm or fireworks) we arrange a very intense playdate with his Silver 3.5 y/o SP friend Toby. If this is done at least 8-10 hours ahead, he can usually sleep through it. I'll also give him 30 minutes or frisbee as he's very good at bringing it back to me. 5) Ice Cubes--10:30pm July 5th, neighbors who attended community/DC firework events on the 4th decided to host their own "spectaculars". Out of desperation, I was rubbing this on Heth's neck & head to helm calm him down. Much too late for any of the above to help, so Frances & I cuddled him and I was really surprised to see that it did help to a degree. The only other things that I can think of trying is to 1) Purchase a couple of CD's. One of them a "Nature" thing like 'Thuderstorms in The Grand Canyon' and another similar recording of fireworks and just playing them (for very shorts periods at 1st) at random times during the day and graduating to just reading the Sunday paper with all of the poodles with us listening to an hour of these CD's. 2) Have him wear one of those lycra body suits that field people use for their poodles (burrs/ticks). Something along the idea of the Tellington Touch technique of wrapping the dogs torso in an effort to calm them down. A VERY LARGE COOKIE Reward awaits someone with a solution which works. Thanks, Bill ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from imo-m17.mx.aol.com ([192.168.1.3]) by mta001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709200446.IAZO7818.mta001.verizon.net@imo-m17.mx.aol.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:04:46 -0500 Received: from imo-m17.mx.aol.com (64.12.138.207) by sc021pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <3-27413-82-27413-7846-2-1089403485> for mta001.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:04:46 -0500 Received: from SusiPoodle@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1dd.25e61d91 (24895); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:04:30 -0400 (EDT) From: SusiPoodle@aol.com Message-ID: <1dd.25e61d91.2e20544e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:04:30 EDT Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth To: franbill@verizon.net CC: psg@poodle.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1089403470" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5110 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 In a message dated 7/9/2004 1:57:40 PM Central Standard Time, franbill@bellatlantic.net writes: A VERY LARGE COOKIE Reward awaits someone with a solution which works. Thanks, Bill ***** Bill, I would suggest Rescue Remedy, available in a tiny bottle from the health food stores. Four drops on the tongue and my friend's standard will sleep through a thunderstorm instead of shaking through it. Doesn't work on all dogs, but when it does, it's amazing. I've used it on myself a time or two, and it is calming without numbing, and it will not hurt him. Sue Ross Renaissance Miniature Poodles Waverly, Indiana Return-Path: Received: from imo-m17.mx.aol.com ([192.168.1.4]) by mta009.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709200740.HSPH24148.mta009.verizon.net@imo-m17.mx.aol.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:07:40 -0500 Received: from imo-m17.mx.aol.com (64.12.138.207) by sc013pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <2-23793-107-23793-70028-1-1089403660> for mta009.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:07:40 -0500 Received: from CURLYTOP1976@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.97.4a3e83eb (4254) for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:07:38 -0400 (EDT) From: CURLYTOP1976@aol.com Message-ID: <97.4a3e83eb.2e20550a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:07:38 EDT Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth To: franbill@verizon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1089403658" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 I live in central Florida, thunderstorms are a daily way of life here. The thunderstorm CD's are a good idea to help him think that the noise is just something that happens all the time. Maybe try to act like it is a fun time and try not to let him know you are worried. Sometimes our reactions exaggerate theirs. You could also try DAP (it is a dog appeasing pheromone), we are using it in dogs that are scared of thunderstorms and going to new places. It has a calming effect on them. They have a diffuser kit that you plug in the wall, or a spray that you can spray in the kennel or area that he will be in. Another alternative is Clomicalm by Novartis, we have had good results with this. This does work but the owner needs to do constructive training at the same time. I'm sure there are things to try, but from past experience I know it can be hard to overcome. Kim Raymond Curlytop Poodles www.curlytoppoodles.com Chauncey (mom of 8) and Jasmine ( I just want to have fun) Return-Path: Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([192.168.1.3]) by mta003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709201134.XKMM9578.mta003.verizon.net@goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:11:34 -0500 Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (207.217.120.18) by sc021pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-27413-55-27413-7989-1-1089403891> for mta003.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:11:34 -0500 Received: from user-10lf7bp.cable.mindspring.com ([65.87.157.121]) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj1iV-0002Pn-00 for franbill@verizon.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:11:31 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:10:49 -0400 Subject: idea From: Ann Addison To: Cookie Man Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Put on one of your T shirts on him Ann Addison Argenta Toy Poodles Columbia, South Carolina canicheaa@earthlink.net http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/9366 -- Return-Path: Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net ([192.168.1.2]) by mta005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709201139.HRBV4656.mta005.verizon.net@mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:11:39 -0500 Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (204.127.131.115) by sc011pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-1006-101-1006-27187-1-1089403898> for mta005.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:11:39 -0500 Received: from worldnet.att.net (94.jacksonville-01rh15-16rt.fl.dial-access.att.net[12.77.200.94]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <200407092011371110044d8ve>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:11:38 +0000 Message-ID: <40EEFBE3.9030602@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:11:15 -0400 From: Tina & Char User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cookie Man Subject: Re: [BestOfVariety] Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth References: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Writing off-list, Bill. We're so sorry Heth is having such a terrible fear of storms. One thing you didn't mention, which they SAY works to some degree, is to put a man's t-shirt on the dog, front legs through the sleeves of course, and tie the excess into a knot on top of his back so that it doesn't drape down. It wouldn't cost much, so why not try it? We're worried about Ann Addison, but she has a wonderful attitude as she faces the surgery this coming Monday. She said you're sending her cookies! Our little Liberty is a real joy. Just wish you could meet her! Hugs Tina & Char Return-Path: Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com ([192.168.1.1]) by mta012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709201135.HSGG8858.mta012.verizon.net@imo-d05.mx.aol.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:11:35 -0500 Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (205.188.157.37) by sc014pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <3-11676-12-11676-74969-1-1089403895> for mta012.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:11:35 -0500 Received: from SjPoodle@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.ea.52e9082a (3964) for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:11:16 -0400 (EDT) From: SjPoodle@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:11:16 EDT Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth To: franbill@verizon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1089403875" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5113 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill, I have a dog who is the same way and has been for 11 years and the only thing short of drugging him with ace is the benedryl and I've had to learn to just give it to him if the forecast calls for rain and it works. The key is early enough, but after literally trying it all, we have found the benedryl takes the edge off and he doesn't pant and breathe so hard that his heart is jumping out of his chest. We also just used it for the fireworks and it helped alot. Take heart, it seems age does help this problem as Shadow is now 11 and is better than when he was younger, but it still is unnerving to him. I feel so bad for these kids when it happens. I hope poor Heth gets some relief and if you hear of any better suggestions, pass them on. Sally Return-Path: Received: from web51603.mail.yahoo.com ([192.168.1.2]) by mta016.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709201556.HQOD4222.mta016.verizon.net@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:15:56 -0500 Received: from web51603.mail.yahoo.com (206.190.38.208) by sc007pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <1-22832-148-22832-8664-1-1089404156> for mta016.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:15:56 -0500 Message-ID: <20040709201556.69459.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.127.243.162] by web51603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:15:56 PDT Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:15:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Leslie Soden Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth To: franbill@verizon.net In-Reply-To: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 I think the other 2 ideas you haven't tried sound good, especially #1 if you gradually increase the volume to slowly desensitize him. Good luck! --- franbill@bellatlantic.net wrote: > The only other things that I can think of trying is to > > 1) Purchase a couple of CD's. One of them a "Nature" thing like > 'Thuderstorms in The Grand Canyon' and another similar recording of > fireworks and just playing them (for very shorts periods at 1st) at > random times during the day and graduating to just reading the Sunday > paper with all of the poodles with us listening to an hour of these > CD's. ===== Leslie Soden http://www.sunflower.com/~lessoden __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.4]) by mta010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709204838.GWQR6316.mta010.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:48:38 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc013pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-23794-28-23794-70229-1-1089406118> for mta010.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:48:38 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69KdjtA003019; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:39:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69KdhYp003008 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:39:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Arlrichpdl@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 9.67.2d83ecdf (3657) for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:39:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Arlrichpdl@aol.com Message-ID: <67.2d83ecdf.2e205c7d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:39:25 EDT To: psg@poodle.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Subject: PSG: Re: Cookieman & Heth X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 << Received: from web20515.mail.yahoo.com ([192.168.1.1]) by mta006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709204133.IVOD26422.mta006.verizon.net@web20515.mail.yahoo.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:41:33 -0500 Received: from web20515.mail.yahoo.com (216.136.232.184) by sc016pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <4-1009-212-1009-45684-1-1089405692> for mta006.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:41:33 -0500 Message-ID: <20040709204132.49013.qmail@web20515.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.127.197.195] by web20515.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:41:32 PDT Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:41:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jacqui Webster Subject: Re: Cookies To: franbill@verizon.net In-Reply-To: <40EEEBDE.4783BAB0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Thanks, Bill. We are honored to be honored with cookies. Your private update on Floyd: I guess the operation was a success because he is starting to want to jump and get up on furniture. Of course, I have to resrict that for the rest of the 30 days but he tries to get sneaky and I see him comtemplating the couch or bed when my back is turned and he has already taken a couple of four legged leaps unexpectedly. This is the fifth day after surgery....25 more to go and I can only imagine that he will get more antsy as the time goes on. There is no puffiness, redness or hot feeling on his incision and I believe it is already starting to itch a little. Fortunately he is on Prednisone which is a cortisone and I am sure it relieves some of the itchiness and is an anti-inflammatory. If everything goes as well from now on, he will probably get the staples (21) out on Monday the 19th. Sorry about Heth's fear of the fireworks and thunder. A couple of years ago, I took Floyd to a doggie 4th of July party at the training center we take agility at and even though they did not have fireworks, there were some in a park about a block away. We had to eventually had to go home because Floyd was cringing. I found with him that just holding him tightly in my arms helps a lot. It doesn't do away with the shakes but they become more controlable. Give him an extra hug for us when he is frightened next time....and all our best to Fran. Jacqui and Flyin' (Soon) Floyd --- franbill@bellatlantic.net wrote: > Hi Jacqui--I've updated my addy book with your > current address. > Your cookies will go out tomorrow. :o))) Bill > > > > > Return-Path: Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([192.168.1.2]) by mta006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709204720.JANE26422.mta006.verizon.net@hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:47:20 -0500 Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (207.217.120.22) by sc003pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-8228-225-8228-14163-1-1089406039> for mta006.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:47:20 -0500 Received: from rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.78.187]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj2H9-0006z5-00 for franbill@verizon.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:47:19 -0700 Message-ID: <25533579.1089406039540.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:47:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jan Gray Reply-To: Jan Gray To: franbill@verizon.net Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill, I'd get the CD's and start them out at the very lowest volume you can. Increase the volume very gradually over a period of weeks. From the very beginning, while the volume is so low you can barely hear it, act casual and ignore him, read the paper, whatever. You stay calm and ignore him (giving him attention for being afraid will reward him for being afraid--I know he's genuinely afraid now, but if you start out at low volume there won't be any need for him to be and no need for him to be "rewarded" with your attention). I'd also use calming signals--look away from him, lick your lips, yawning, etc. Get Turid Rugaas's book--it's inexpensive and goes over the signals dogs use to calm each other. I did a web search for "calming signals" and several articles came up with the info. She even has her own site and if you get it and got to articles and go to calming signals you can get it straight from her. There are sites in Norwegian but they show dogs doing the calming signals. This stuff works! There's a theory that some dogs are more sensitive to the electricity in a storm, so many like to be near toilets or in bathtubs. Maybe have him somewhere with grounding would help. The TT stuff might work also, but an Ace Bandage would be alot cheaper than one of the Lycra suits. Good luck and let us know what works! Jan Return-Path: Received: from pvandf.com ([192.168.1.4]) by mta008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709205033.JMQS24228.mta008.verizon.net@pvandf.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:50:33 -0500 Received: from pvandf.com (207.182.231.107) by sc013pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-23793-94-23793-69944-1-1089406232> for mta008.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:50:33 -0500 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C465F6.7B57768A" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Subject: RE: PSG: Thunderstorms/Fireworks Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:51:17 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: RE: PSG: Thunderstorms/Fireworks thread-index: AcRl9nr/Pai3mf/aQQSxHENOPvB3Sg== From: "Judy McKelvey" To: X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hi, Bill – Saw your PSG post asking how to help your poor boy through the nasty sounds/vibrations. My dearly departed Boston Terrier was the same way, and I always felt worried for her. Eventually, I asked my vet for a prescription medication to help her remain calm. He gave me a very very very mild sedative-type thing (can’t recall it’s name now), and it worked like a charm. She had no adverse reactions – just seemed a little sleepier than usual, and much much happier than if she’d had to endure more fireworks (here in California, I don’t have to worry about thunder too often). Now I have my 11 month old standard, Gem, and I was very concerned to see how she made it through her first July 4. So I decided to try to desensitize her. About a week before July 4, I started banging loud pots and pie pans together, giving her a treat after every surprising “BOOM”. The first two times that I came up behind her and made the loud sound when she wasn’t looking, she jumped and then cowered. But pretty quickly, she would stand right next to the banging pots/pans, waiting for a treat and wagging her tail. If I came up behind her and surprised her, she’d immediately turn, wag tail, and look for her treat. On the 4th, I crated her with a nice juicy bone. I checked her often, as fireworks and firecrackers were being used next door by our neighbors. She seemed fine as wine, and emerged after the festivities with no ill effects from her “ordeal.” Don’t know if this will help, but I hope that something does. I feel so sorry for them, and know how worried you feel when you feel their hearts pounding and see the look of terror in their eyes. Good luck. Judy McK. Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.2]) by mta004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709205514.JSKB3391.mta004.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:55:14 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc008pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-1003-5-1003-26964-1-1089406514> for mta004.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:55:14 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69KqSD7004737; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:52:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.228]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69KqPVi004726 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:52:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200407092052.i69KqPVi004726@poodle.org> Received: from [64.78.181.206] (helo=DHLZV241) by mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bj2M5-0004Ec-Gq; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:52:25 -0700 From: "Cynthia Robins" To: , Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:52:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <67.2d83ecdf.2e205c7d@aol.com> Thread-Index: AcRl9N5Y0jw1EFrySD2zweh9ZT+2kwAAZKCA X-ELNK-Trace: 211fe966989e3c391aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79271c74f9d48fdccc66d9fcf643487453350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.78.181.206 Cc: Subject: PSG: RE: Re: Cookieman & Heth X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 I don't even want to hear about thunderstorms. Here in Denver the skies are VERY dark, and the boomers are unbelievable. The last one made my chair shake. Luckily Rajah (10.6 y/o Standard) could care less about those things. Me - I'm about to hit the cooking sherry for some relief. Cynthia Lerner Jubilant Standard Poodles -----Original Message----- From: psg-bounces@poodle.org [mailto:psg-bounces@poodle.org] On Behalf Of Arlrichpdl@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 2:39 PM To: psg@poodle.org Subject: PSG: Re: Cookieman & Heth << Received: from hotmail.com ([192.168.1.1]) by mta003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709211609.ZRAC9578.mta003.verizon.net@hotmail.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:16:09 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (65.54.245.24) by sc002pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-13437-92-13437-12348-1-1089407768> for mta003.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:16:09 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:16:08 -0700 Received: from 66.207.116.12 by by1fd.bay1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:16:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.207.116.12] X-Originating-Email: [kathleencullen@hotmail.com] X-Sender: kathleencullen@hotmail.com From: "Kathleen Cullen" To: franbill@bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Thunderstorms etc. (PSG) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:16:08 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 21:16:08.0724 (UTC) FILETIME=[F3F29540:01C465F9] X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Rather than an ordinary CD designed for our listening pleasure, I would get one of the ones specifically designed for dogs. I used a "shotgun" tape with my last litter--played it from the day they were born. None of them has any trouble with storms, fireworks, or any loud noises. In fact, during this past holiday, I had neighbours on three sides setting off fireworks. I took my one-year-old out in the backyard and did some training exercises (as well as I could in the dark) during the height of it and he didn't even seem to notice the noise. These tapes/CDs start out with just soothing music, then slowly add the noise, very, very faint at first. Until a dog is completely comfortable with one level, you don't move on to the next. It comes with a complete set of instructions and a chart for tracking progress. I borrowed the shotgun tape from a friend who does field trials and had been asked to "cure" a vizla that was terrified of the gunshots. The tape really worked for her. I didn't write down the company that produced it, but, if you want to try it, I will find out from my friend where to get one. []Kathleen[] Share a single photo or an entire slide sho w right inside your e-mail With MSN Premium Get 2 Months FREE* Return-Path: Received: from web20522.mail.yahoo.com ([192.168.1.4]) by mta014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709211736.JSCC10554.mta014.verizon.net@web20522.mail.yahoo.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:17:36 -0500 Received: from web20522.mail.yahoo.com (216.136.227.35) by sc010pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <1-1005-121-1005-58939-1-1089407855> for mta014.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:17:36 -0500 Message-ID: <20040709211735.56378.qmail@web20522.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.127.197.195] by web20522.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:17:35 PDT Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:17:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jacqui Webster Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth To: franbill@verizon.net In-Reply-To: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill, Floyd has a lycra suit that I have had for a couple of years. Ii is the one made for warmth but is very like the shiny lycra one used to protect surgery. I got it when he started having the problems with his back. No one could pin point the source of the problem. so I got this suit to keep him warm on cool winter evenings and he could still excercise in it and participe in agility without getting cold and tense making him shake and shiver. I never thought of using it for loud noises but it woould be similar to the suggestion that I had about holding him tight. I guess it is the same theory as swaddling a baby. Jacqui --- franbill@bellatlantic.net wrote: > We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black > SP Heth's horrific > reactions. We know that many of you currently deal > with this, and some > have even arrived at solutions which actually work. > > What really has me (Bill) upset is that body shakes > so violently & his > heart pounds so strong against his chest that I fear > he will have a > heart attack or go into a seizure. The > frightened/panicked look in his > eyes makes us feel especially helpless. > > During the months of June-August, the metropolitan > Washington, DC area > experiences (almost daily) severe thunderstorm > activity. The typical > 5-day forecast is: "The '3-H's' - Hot, Hazy, Humid > followed by late > afternoon thunderstorms. The storm cells can > produce tornadic like > effects. > > Fireworks are set off by individuals in > neighborhoods year round for > such events as New Years, High School/College > Graduation parties, July > 4, big sports events (World Series, Super Bowl, > NBA), and of course loud > highly-attended parties back yard or neighborhood > parties. > > In addition to the 1-3" firecrackers (which create a > loud pop), > noiselesss sky rockets, & "fountains", someone who > has traveled to North > & South Carolina will set off something which can > create the noise & > destruction of a 1/4" stick of dynamite. Our police > are usually > occupied with much more serious activity, or arrive > too late to stop it. > > At the 1st faint sound of distant thunder/or > explosions, Heth looks up > with wild/panic and starts his nervous pacing and > running around. When > the real noise kicks in, no amount of cuddling will > calm him down. > > OK, so here are some of the things we've tried: > 1)The holistic vet-Chinese calming herb pills given > over a 30 day > period. No Help > > 2)Valerian Pills-Given 2-3 hours in advance. Does > help for the less > intense times > > 3)Valerian Liquid / or Spray-- Acts much more > quickly than pills and the > earlier it's given, the better. > Side effects can be upset/rumbling stomach. > > 4) Benadryal--He's 51# and we give him 2 pills > (50mg) 2-3 hours before > the storm to make him sleepy > Thid does help if given early enough > > 4) Physical activity--If we get enough warning > (storm or fireworks) we > arrange a very intense playdate with his Silver 3.5 > y/o SP friend Toby. > If this is done at least 8-10 hours ahead, he can > usually sleep through > it. I'll also give him 30 minutes or frisbee as > he's very good at > bringing it back to me. > > 5) Ice Cubes--10:30pm July 5th, neighbors who > attended community/DC > firework events on the 4th decided to host their own > "spectaculars". > Out of desperation, I was rubbing this on Heth's > neck & head to helm > calm him down. Much too late for any of the above > to help, so Frances & > I cuddled him and I was really surprised to see that > it did help to a > degree. > > > > The only other things that I can think of trying is > to > > 1) Purchase a couple of CD's. One of them a > "Nature" thing like > 'Thuderstorms in The Grand Canyon' and another > similar recording of > fireworks and just playing them (for very shorts > periods at 1st) at > random times during the day and graduating to just > reading the Sunday > paper with all of the poodles with us listening to > an hour of these > CD's. > > 2) Have him wear one of those lycra body suits that > field people use for > their poodles (burrs/ticks). > Something along the idea of the Tellington Touch > technique of wrapping > the dogs torso in an effort to calm them down. > > A VERY LARGE COOKIE Reward awaits someone with a > solution which works. > > Thanks, Bill > > > > ___________________________________________________ > PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group > Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg > List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg > Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.2]) by mta019.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709212812.EQM23640.mta019.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:28:12 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc003pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-8224-120-8224-13927-1-1089408492> for mta019.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:28:12 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69LPYx4008626; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:25:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from whale2.fsr.net (root@whale2.fsr.net [207.141.26.23]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69LPVxd008614 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:25:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CASSIDY (l180027.mos.dialup.fsr.net [64.126.180.27]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id i69LPYTn039371 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:25:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lostriver@completebbs.com) Message-ID: <00c801c465fb$43499930$7db47e40@CASSIDY> From: "Kelly Cassidy" To: References: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:24:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: PSG: Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill, I hate to sound pessimistic, but it's unlikely you can do much to desensitize him. I've been around the block on that issue with my last dog, the husky/shepherd cross that was terrified of fireworks and gunshots. (Luckily, thunderstorms didn't bother him.) From everything I've read about gunshy dogs, that type of reaction is genetic and too deeply ingrained to do much about. You find most information about gunshy dogs among hunting dogs owners. I tried doing the happy/nonchalant behavior during fireworks. Tried having him with me in a group of happy friends during fireworks, tried exposing him to faraway booms. Treat rewards, of course, don't work, because a terrified dog won't eat. If you know in advance there will be fireworks, you can get a prescription for sedatives from the vet. They work best if given before the fireworks start. If you don't know in advance, or if loud noises are too common to keep the dog in a constant state of druggedness, be sure he has a guiet place to hide. A crate covered with blankets in the darkest, most soundproof room in the house will help. In summer, if you can keep the crate in a dark room with a noisy window A/C unit, he will stay cooler and the A/C will drown out much of the noise. Good luck. I feel for you. Kelly ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.2]) by mta004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709213319.LACO3391.mta004.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:33:19 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc015pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-9542-189-9542-3257-1-1089408799> for mta004.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:33:19 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69LU6Qi009333; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:30:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69LU3Wf009308 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:30:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-4.243.242.231.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net ([4.243.242.231] helo=[4.243.245.192]) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj2wP-0002x4-00 for psg@poodle.org; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:29:58 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: slf373@pop.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200407092030.i69KUTlF001768@poodle.org> References: <200407092030.i69KUTlF001768@poodle.org> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:31:27 -0700 To: psg@poodle.org From: "Susan L. Fleisher" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:01:31 -0400 From: franbill@bellatlantic.net Subject: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth Black SP Heth's horrific reactions. We know that many of you currently deal with this, and some have even arrived at solutions which actually work. What really has me (Bill) upset is that body shakes so violently & his heart pounds so strong against his chest that I fear he will have a heart attack or go into a seizure. The frightened/panicked look in his eyes makes us feel especially helpless. The only other things that I can think of trying is to 1) Purchase a couple of CD's. One of them a "Nature" thing like 'Thuderstorms in The Grand Canyon' and another similar recording of fireworks and just playing them (for very shorts periods at 1st) at random times during the day and graduating to just reading the Sunday paper with all of the poodles with us listening to an hour of these CD's. 2) Have him wear one of those lycra body suits that field people use for their poodles (burrs/ticks). Something along the idea of the Tellington Touch technique of wrapping the dogs torso in an effort to calm them down. A VERY LARGE COOKIE Reward awaits someone with a solution which works. Thanks, Bill Bill, I'd give him Valium, which specifically calms anxiety, rather than giving him Benadryl, which might make him sleepy. Alos, someone is making a suit that does something about static electricity or whatever it is that is produced by an electrical storm. It is guaranteed to work, or can be returned for a full refund after, I think, three months. Susan -- Susan L. Fleisher slf373@earthlink.net Berkeley, CA fax 501 621-7842 Kidney Disease in Dogs website: symptoms, diagnosis, treatment, management (medical and dietary), recipes, breed specific renal diseases, genetics, current research, bibliography and abstracts http://www.geocities.com/jjfleisher/ Juvenile Renal Disease (JRD) in Standard Poodles: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/9709/jrdsusanfleisher.html Clinical article on Juvenile Renal Disease (JRD) in Standard Poodles: http://www.vetprof.com/clientinfo/poodlerenal.html Juvenile and familial renal diseases in dogs: http://vetprof.com/clientinfo/juvenilerenal.html ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com ([192.168.1.4]) by mta014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709213400.KGVL10554.mta014.verizon.net@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:34:00 -0500 Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (65.24.5.137) by sc010pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-1008-164-1008-58484-1-1089408840> for mta014.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:34:00 -0500 Received: from Burch1 (dhcp065-026-176-160.indy.rr.com [65.26.176.160]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i69LXtVf029249; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008a01c465fc$7011b870$a0b01a41@Burch1> From: " Judy Burch" To: , , "PSG" References: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:33:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill I have had EXCELLENT results with Melatonin. Recently I have suggested it's use with several dogs with major thunderstorm phobias and their owners saw results on the very first use. The dogs still wanted to be by their humans, but the trembling, shaking and whining were gone. I have used this with Rocky after he developed t-storm fears after a near tornado years ago. After several uses, he now no longer needs it although he still does want to be near me. At only 12 pounds, I gave him a whole 3 mg tablet with great results. I did notice that if I gave this to him during the day, it made him sleepy, which was ok at night. The following post was on wellpet years ago. The *I* in the post is not me btw. Again, I have seen this help many dogs. ********** I finally got in contact with Dr. Aronson, who presented the Melatonin cases at Dr. Jean Dodds' seminar here in MA. Her study will not be published until summer in the journal of veterinary medicine, but she did give me some further information. She has found melatonin 80% successful in treating dogs with fear of loud noises, i.e., thunderstorms. She mentioned that it was also effective for epilepsy and a number of other conditions that allopathic vets use anti-depressants for. It produces the same results that an antidepressant does. Dr. Aronson said she doesn't see the need to keep up a regimen of anti-depressants when melatonin will work when needed. A dog would have to have over 100 milligrams of Melatonin before there was any adverse effect. Suggested dosage is: 20lbs or less 1 1/2 milligrams 40lbs - 100 lbs 3 milligrams over 100 lbs 6 milligrams This dosage can be given up to 3x's a day. When you know that a thunderstorm is approaching or there is the firstsign of a "rumble" start the dosage. Results are very fast with no side effects. *********** Judy Judy Burch sburch@indy.rr.com OTCh Pepper 4-10-88---5-20-03 Rocky UD 13 yr old male, silver miniature poodle Boomer UD 6 yr old male, black miniature poodle with Idiopathic Epilepsy Brownsburg, IN ****Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened**** Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.2]) by mta012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709214258.KWAK8858.mta012.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:42:58 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc001pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-14853-131-14853-13178-1-1089409377> for mta012.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:42:58 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69LcgKE010636; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:38:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web60903.mail.yahoo.com (web60903.mail.yahoo.com [216.155.196.79]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i69Lce6X010602 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:38:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20040709213835.60454.qmail@web60903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.153.251.66] by web60903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:38:35 PDT Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:38:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Linda Rhodes To: psg@poodle.org In-Reply-To: <200407092030.i69KUTlG001768@poodle.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.4 Subject: PSG: Re: PSG Digest, Vol 7, Issue 65--Thunder, Noise X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 You mentioned something similar to this, but the actual product name is "Anxiety Wrap". There's lots of info out there. My instructor received info on a home-made wrap. She has a big, 16 year old golden that is now terrified of thunder. Valium helps, but she's afraid he will fall and get hurt. She used the home-made wrap--very tightly fitting t-shirt with something tucked in the front for weight, like a book, and he was better. Not 100% but didn't need the valium. She hasn't been able to find the article, though. I was just searching the net for it when I read your post. The one thing I do see repeatedly is "do not coo and sympathize, or pet, etc. because it rewards the behavior." Makes sense in a way. But I would think sitting or lying right next to the dog, touching or holding would be the answer. My 10 year old SP was shaking horribly at the vet yesterday after a big, grossly obese lab mix turned Cujo. Of course the owner never thought to shorten that 8' lead! He didn't stop shaking even after they left until I sat on the floor, right next to him, and just lay my hand on him. (He's never reacted that way before, but now that his sight is going....) Linda R 2) Have him wear one of those lycra body suits that field people use for their poodles (burrs/ticks). Something along the idea of the Tellington Touch technique of wrapping the dogs torso in an effort to calm them down. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net ([192.168.1.4]) by mta017.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709215529.LCNR27874.mta017.verizon.net@hall.mail.mindspring.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:55:29 -0500 Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (207.69.200.60) by sc010pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-1007-48-1007-67413-1-1089410129> for mta017.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:55:29 -0500 Received: from user-11faggc.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.245.66.12] helo=yourkuh1evx06w) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj3L7-0008NG-00 for franbill@bellatlantic.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:55:29 -0400 Message-ID: <004701c465ff$72b29ab0$bfa0fea9@yourkuh1evx06w> From: "C. A. McGinnis" To: Subject: Heth's reaction to thunder/fireworks Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:55:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01C465DD.EB30FAD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hi Bill, So sorry to hear that one of your babies gets so un-nerved by thunder & other LOUD noises. I don't know if this would work for you, but what I do to help desensitize my pups to things like thunder and fireworks is use a starter pistol and lots of yummy cheese bits as treats. I'd fire the starter pistol (which sounds like a VERY loud cap gun), and the pups would drop their tails, hunch up and look around all frightened, at which point I'd talk real happy talk to them and pass out a piece of cheese (a favorite tidbit & doesn't cause diarrhea). I'd then wait until they are all happy & scampering about in the yard, and I'd do it again (maybe 2 or 3 quick shots) -- again, the tails would DROP, they'd look around for the big frightening noise that they are sure is coming to get them - and instead, mommy would be calling them with lots of happy noises and a piece of cheese. I tried to be very careful and not reward them for a fearful response (hence the happy talk - a little diversion tactic) I do not want to say "Oh, that's okay, you don't have to be afraid" in a soft, soothing tone that would be interpreted as a "good dog" response to the fear, and thereby reinforcing that it is okay to be frightened. Basically, what this turned out to be, was clicker training with a REAL loud noise. By the third or fourth day of this game, whenever they heard the bang of the pistol, they would come running up to me looking for their treat. It was no longer a scary thing for them, rather the sign of something good to come. We have been blessed with some WICKED storms recently, and I would purposely leave them outside to play as the storms started to rumble towards us - so they would hear the noise in the background, but it was a happy time with lots of happy treats. As it started to rain, and I had to bring them inside, and they heard the thunder - again, I'd pull out the cheese. BOOM (thunder) - zip--treat into the mouth. LOTS of wagging tails. There were a lot of fireworks all around (redneck central!) the whole weekend, and fortunately, the pups just ignore the bangs, or they look around to see if the crazy lady is there with treats for them. When I've had winter litters, I have used the thunderstorm CDs and would occasionally drop pans while it was on, for extra noise. If you would like to try the starter pistol, I'd be happy to send it up to you to use. Cathy Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com ([192.168.1.3]) by mta010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709220540.JOKH6316.mta010.verizon.net@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:05:40 -0500 Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (65.24.5.136) by sc019pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-1013-162-1013-45610-1-1089410740> for mta010.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:05:40 -0500 Received: from Burch1 (dhcp065-026-176-160.indy.rr.com [65.26.176.160]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i69M5alq016376 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <015501c46600$dd30c2d0$a0b01a41@Burch1> From: " Judy Burch" To: References: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:05:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 >>A VERY LARGE COOKIE Reward awaits someone with a solution which works.<< Bill I just noticed this after I sent my post to you about Melatonin. Believe me, IF it works for Heth, that will be reward enough. I know how tough it is to have a dog who is fearful during thunderstorms! Judy :o) Judy Burch sburch@indy.rr.com OTCh Pepper 4-10-88---5-20-03 Rocky UD 13 yr old male, silver miniature poodle Boomer UD 6 yr old male, black miniature poodle with Idiopathic Epilepsy Brownsburg, IN ****Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened**** Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.4]) by mta013.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709221847.GTWB23677.mta013.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:18:47 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc022pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-29463-41-29463-16974-1-1089411527> for mta013.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:18:47 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69MEW9j017866; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:14:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail26g.sbc-webhosting.com (mail26g.sbc-webhosting.com [216.173.237.182]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i69MEUh5017858 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:14:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www2601.sbc-webhosting.com (216.173.237.14) by mail26g.sbc-webhosting.com (RS ver 1.0.94vs) with SMTP id 4-1832011268 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0ab601c46602$7b460290$210110ac@Janinedesktop> From: "Janine Adams" To: "PSG" References: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:17:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Subject: PSG: Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill, My standard poodle, Pip, has mild thunder phobia (whining, pacing). What works well for her is the amino acid l-theanine, which is calming. I give her one capsule and she goes into her crate and chills. If one capsule doesn't do the trick, I'll give her another 15 minutes later. I've never been tempted to give her more, since two has always calmed her. Sometimes I'll put a t-shirt on her too, if it's not too warm in the house. I buy the l-theanine here: http://www.painstresscenter.com/mall/LT.asp If l-theanine didn't work so well for Pip, I'd be tempted to try the Anxiety Wrap that someone else suggested. You can read about it here: http://www.anxietywrap.com I have a friend with a mixed breed dog who has terrible thunder phobia. She would tear bathroom fixtures off the wall if a surprise storm hit while her folks weren't home. It's extreme, but what worked wonders for her is daily, year-round doses of Prozac with the addition of Valium during a storm. (Apparently using only one of them wasn't very helpful.) It's made a big difference in this dog's quality of life, since in the summer thunderstorms are very common. Hope that helps, Janine ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net ([192.168.1.4]) by mta010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709221146.JTWS6316.mta010.verizon.net@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:11:46 -0500 Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (207.69.200.157) by sc022pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-21019-31-21019-4464-1-1089411106> for mta010.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:11:46 -0500 Received: from user-2ivffos.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.191.28] helo=infionline.net) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj3ar-0000eU-00 for franbill@verizon.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:11:45 -0400 Message-ID: <40EF1987.93B2141F@infionline.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:17:45 -0400 From: Caroline Hair X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: franbill@verizon.net Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth References: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill- Before giving you any suggestions, tell me this: How long has he been afraid of thunder? How do you and Fran react when you hear a storm coming and when Heth begins to act afraid? What have you don so far and how did it work? Caroline Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.2]) by mta017.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709222936.MHGZ27874.mta017.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:29:36 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc003pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-8228-58-8228-13617-1-1089412176> for mta017.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:29:36 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69MP3K9019165; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:25:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts25.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.188]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69MP1MW019158 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:25:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost ([209.226.182.175]) by tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20040709222459.JSIZ28143.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:24:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:21:06 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: Emily Cain To: psg@poodle.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200407092030.i69KUTlE001768@poodle.org> Message-Id: <45AF3A27-D1F6-11D8-925B-0003939A622A@sympatico.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Subject: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 On Friday, July 9, 2004, at 04:30 PM,Bill wrote: We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black SP Heth's horrific reactions [to loud noises, fireworks, etc.].... Bill, if I post, and if my suggestion is successful, PUHLEEZE don't send along cookies, I had a hip replaced in April, and etc. etc. Our dogs LOVE the sound of thunder and gunshot, etc., and this is because they associate this loud noise with tremendous fun, birds, retrieving, and so on. So, obtain a few dead pigeons and a few dead ducks and commence fetch training using these and whatever else is around the house, hammers, dumbells, etc., and then take 'em to a retriever training session, and you will probably have to throw dead birds for a lot of slavering Labradors, but never mind, with the back of your truck (you're an ole boy and drive a truck, eh? That's a Canadian eh...) open so your Poodles have the chance to become frantic with desire. .. and so on. And on. Until when you jostle the whistle on the coat hook, all your dogs run down two flights of stairs from the third floor and scrabble around the corner and stand there, gazing at the whistle, slavering and eager. And when they discover it's a mistake, they slink away. I had a friend who couldn't even get beans out of the freezer without every dog in the house ending up facing the freezer waiting eagerly for the bags of frozen birds to be lifted out. And what about the person who, when he loaded his truck for training, the dogs AND the ducks he kept in the back yard all lined up to get into the vehicle for some fun? --Emily Poodle History Project (annotated bibliography) http://www.poodlehistory.org ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.4]) by mta015.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709223917.MEZQ413.mta015.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:39:17 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc022pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-29463-88-29463-16821-1-1089412757> for mta015.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:39:17 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69Mbwvm021103; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:37:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (imo-m21.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.2]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69Mbu1i021084 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:37:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Accordalice@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 9.54.2de1a490 (4196); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:37:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Accordalice@aol.com Message-ID: <54.2de1a490.2e207838@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:37:44 EDT To: psg@poodle.org, franbill@bellatlantic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Cc: Subject: PSG: Re:Thunderstorms and Heth X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 In a message dated 7/9/04 3:31:08 PM Central Daylight Time, psg-request@poodle.org writes: << From: franbill@bellatlantic.net Subject: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black SP Heth's horrific reactions. We know that many of you currently deal with this, and some have even arrived at solutions which actually work. >> Have you ever tried crating him during storms? I find my dogs feel more secure in their crates. I have a large kennel room in the basement and that is where the crates are and where the dogs spend their time when they are not upstairs with me. An added benefit is that being below ground level seems to help nullify the noise and vibration of the thunder. Cuddling and making a fuss over him is the worst thing you can do. It reinforces the idea that something bad is happening. You need to be calm and very matter-of-fact about it. Alice ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com ([192.168.1.3]) by mta001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709223757.NKUC7818.mta001.verizon.net@imo-m21.mx.aol.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:37:57 -0500 Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (64.12.137.2) by sc019pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <3-1009-177-1009-45958-1-1089412677> for mta001.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:37:57 -0500 Received: from Accordalice@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 9.54.2de1a490 (4196); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:37:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Accordalice@aol.com Message-ID: <54.2de1a490.2e207838@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:37:44 EDT Subject: Re:Thunderstorms and Heth To: psg@poodle.org, franbill@bellatlantic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 In a message dated 7/9/04 3:31:08 PM Central Daylight Time, psg-request@poodle.org writes: << From: franbill@bellatlantic.net Subject: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black SP Heth's horrific reactions. We know that many of you currently deal with this, and some have even arrived at solutions which actually work. >> Have you ever tried crating him during storms? I find my dogs feel more secure in their crates. I have a large kennel room in the basement and that is where the crates are and where the dogs spend their time when they are not upstairs with me. An added benefit is that being below ground level seems to help nullify the noise and vibration of the thunder. Cuddling and making a fuss over him is the worst thing you can do. It reinforces the idea that something bad is happening. You need to be calm and very matter-of-fact about it. Alice Return-Path: Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net ([192.168.1.2]) by mta015.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709232803.NQSF413.mta015.verizon.net@sccrmhc11.comcast.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:28:03 -0500 Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (204.127.202.55) by sc011pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-1008-130-1008-27408-15-1089415682> for mta015.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:28:03 -0500 Received: from 204.127.205.145 ([204.127.205.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20040709224451011009j49he>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:44:51 +0000 Received: from [65.97.23.16] by 204.127.205.145; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:44:51 +0000 From: amycompton@comcast.net To: franbill@bellatlantic.net Subject: Hess & storms Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:44:51 +0000 Message-Id: <070920042244.13938.40EF1FE30004D3FD00003672220076230202019B9F03010C97030E@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: YW15Y29tcHRvbkBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_13938_1089413091_0" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill, I'd love to help you and Hess out with this problem, even if it didn't mean a Cookieman cookie for me! Since the poodle seminar in North Carolina has been cancelled, I now have some clear time on the 17th and 18th. How 'bout I scoot up there on one of those days and do an evaluation and show you some exercises to do with him that help most dogs? In the meantime, don't buy an expensive Lycra suit. ('m as tight as the bark on a tree! ) Go to K-Mart or a similar store and buy a toddler's tee shirt in size 3T or 4T--just eyeball what looks right. It needs to fit snugly around his chest. Alternatively, use a 4 in wide Ace Wrap wound around his chest (snug, not tight). Practice putting it on lots of times when no storms are coming, and show him a really good time with food or a toy while he wears it for 10-15 min. Then try putting it on when a storm approaches. Do supervises him while he's wearing until you are convinced he won't chew and eat it. Love to Fran and both dogs, Amy -- Amelia D. Compton, Ph.D. Behavioral Psychologist & Canine Trainer Animal Behavior Solutions 10255 Glendye Road Richmond, VA 23235 804 267-5680 Return-Path: Received: from spam1.wiktel.com ([192.168.1.3]) by mta016.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709224520.MUUI4222.mta016.verizon.net@spam1.wiktel.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:45:20 -0500 Received: from spam1.wiktel.com (204.221.145.252) by sc018pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-1528-105-1528-70104-1-1089413119> for mta016.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:45:20 -0500 Received: from peggyann (198-174-212-19.unfiltered.1.usr1.dialup.wiktel.com [198.174.212.19]) by spam1.wiktel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i69Mj2G1025565 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:45:06 -0500 Message-ID: <023b01c46606$6584b790$13d4aec6@peggyann> From: "Peggy Ann Anderholm" To: References: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:45:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.43 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 OH man, if they come up with a solution I will make them cookies! Anna has similar experiences.....it makes me so sad to see her so upset. Peggy Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "PSG" ; Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 3:01 PM Subject: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth > We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black SP Heth's horrific > reactions. We know that many of you currently deal with this, and some > have even arrived at solutions which actually work. > > What really has me (Bill) upset is that body shakes so violently & his > heart pounds so strong against his chest that I fear he will have a > heart attack or go into a seizure. The frightened/panicked look in his > eyes makes us feel especially helpless. > > During the months of June-August, the metropolitan Washington, DC area > experiences (almost daily) severe thunderstorm activity. The typical > 5-day forecast is: "The '3-H's' - Hot, Hazy, Humid followed by late > afternoon thunderstorms. The storm cells can produce tornadic like > effects. > > Fireworks are set off by individuals in neighborhoods year round for > such events as New Years, High School/College Graduation parties, July > 4, big sports events (World Series, Super Bowl, NBA), and of course loud > highly-attended parties back yard or neighborhood parties. > > In addition to the 1-3" firecrackers (which create a loud pop), > noiselesss sky rockets, & "fountains", someone who has traveled to North > & South Carolina will set off something which can create the noise & > destruction of a 1/4" stick of dynamite. Our police are usually > occupied with much more serious activity, or arrive too late to stop it. > > At the 1st faint sound of distant thunder/or explosions, Heth looks up > with wild/panic and starts his nervous pacing and running around. When > the real noise kicks in, no amount of cuddling will calm him down. > > OK, so here are some of the things we've tried: > 1)The holistic vet-Chinese calming herb pills given over a 30 day > period. No Help > > 2)Valerian Pills-Given 2-3 hours in advance. Does help for the less > intense times > > 3)Valerian Liquid / or Spray-- Acts much more quickly than pills and the > earlier it's given, the better. > Side effects can be upset/rumbling stomach. > > 4) Benadryal--He's 51# and we give him 2 pills (50mg) 2-3 hours before > the storm to make him sleepy > Thid does help if given early enough > > 4) Physical activity--If we get enough warning (storm or fireworks) we > arrange a very intense playdate with his Silver 3.5 y/o SP friend Toby. > If this is done at least 8-10 hours ahead, he can usually sleep through > it. I'll also give him 30 minutes or frisbee as he's very good at > bringing it back to me. > > 5) Ice Cubes--10:30pm July 5th, neighbors who attended community/DC > firework events on the 4th decided to host their own "spectaculars". > Out of desperation, I was rubbing this on Heth's neck & head to helm > calm him down. Much too late for any of the above to help, so Frances & > I cuddled him and I was really surprised to see that it did help to a > degree. > > > > The only other things that I can think of trying is to > > 1) Purchase a couple of CD's. One of them a "Nature" thing like > 'Thuderstorms in The Grand Canyon' and another similar recording of > fireworks and just playing them (for very shorts periods at 1st) at > random times during the day and graduating to just reading the Sunday > paper with all of the poodles with us listening to an hour of these > CD's. > > 2) Have him wear one of those lycra body suits that field people use for > their poodles (burrs/ticks). > Something along the idea of the Tellington Touch technique of wrapping > the dogs torso in an effort to calm them down. > > A VERY LARGE COOKIE Reward awaits someone with a solution which works. > > Thanks, Bill > > > > ___________________________________________________ > PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group > Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg > List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com ([192.168.1.3]) by mta011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709225701.DBEL5111.mta011.verizon.net@imo-d22.mx.aol.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:57:01 -0500 Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (205.188.144.208) by sc018pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <1-1526-169-1526-70916-1-1089413821> for mta011.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:57:01 -0500 Received: from RICOPOOS@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.50.2e522c35 (3699) for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:56:58 -0400 (EDT) From: RICOPOOS@aol.com Message-ID: <50.2e522c35.2e207cba@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:56:58 EDT Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth To: franbill@verizon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1089413818" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 In a message dated 7/9/04 2:57:40 PM Central Daylight Time, franbill@bellatlantic.net writes: We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black SP Heth's horrific reactions. We know that many of you currently deal with this, and some have even arrived at solutions which actually work. CookieMan and Heth, I had a PWD/Border Collie that was noise sensitive, especially gunshots and vaccuum cleaners. He didn't seem to mind fireworks or storms as much, it just seemed to be the others more so. This was a dog I was trying to train for SAR, and to have a dog be disturbed by noises when working SAR is not a good thing, so I had to really work to get him over this. There is no one "magic solution," but rather a combination of things, and a HUGE dose of patience and determination to have the dog get better. What really has me (Bill) upset is that body shakes so violently & his heart pounds so strong against his chest that I fear he will have a heart attack or go into a seizure. The frightened/panicked look in his eyes makes us feel especially helpless. First thing, YOU have to become a STONE. I know it is hard to do, especially when you think your baby is "suffering," but you really have to put your emotions in check, and STOP feeling pity, helpless or aplogetic for the dog feeling that way. That's the first step. Healthy, normal dogs with strong hearts and no previous history of epilepsy or seizures have a 99.9 % chance of NOT having problems like this from a fear response. I'd be more worried about him expressing his anal glands or bladder or bowels involuntarily, that would come first, waaay before a stroke, heart attack or seizure. During the months of June-August, the metropolitan Washington, DC area experiences (almost daily) severe thunderstorm activity. The typical 5-day forecast is: "The '3-H's' - Hot, Hazy, Humid followed by late afternoon thunderstorms. The storm cells can produce tornadic like effects. I know exactly the conditions, only here in Arkansas, it's April through October, with actual tornados happening just about weekly. :-) Fireworks are set off by individuals in neighborhoods year round for such events as New Years, High School/College Graduation parties, July 4, big sports events (World Series, Super Bowl, NBA), and of course loud highly-attended parties back yard or neighborhood parties. We have many local Rednecks that shoot fireworks just about daily for no other reason than they're born pyromaniacs. :-) And don't even get me started on gunshots and loud cars, most that run poorly and backfire very regularly. We live out in the country, sort of, and there is a pond in nearly every backyard within a five mile radius. These Rednecks with their shotguns and other firearms, shooting at snakes and snapping turtles every night just for fun. Some people just don't understand, live and let live. At the 1st faint sound of distant thunder/or explosions, Heth looks up with wild/panic and starts his nervous pacing and running around. When the real noise kicks in, no amount of cuddling will calm him down. Okay, remember, FIRST thing you have to do is STOP the cuddling. Any sort of attention is actually reinforcing the behaviour. Even negative attention is better than being ignored, to a dog, so first, IGNORE the behaviour. As I said before, it will probably require a combination of several things to extinguish the behaviour, so I will list the things I think will help, in no particular order. OK, so here are some of the things we've tried: 1)The holistic vet-Chinese calming herb pills given over a 30 day period. No Help If it doesn't help, then scrap it and try another method. 2)Valerian Pills-Given 2-3 hours in advance. Does help for the less intense times True, Acepromazine does help, but it does nothing but mask the senses and the behaviour, not a solution for the long term behaviour modification. 3)Valerian Liquid / or Spray-- Acts much more quickly than pills and the earlier it's given, the better. Side effects can be upset/rumbling stomach. Again, not a long-term solution, and with negative side-effects. 4) Benadryal--He's 51# and we give him 2 pills (50mg) 2-3 hours before the storm to make him sleepy Thid does help if given early enough Same as previous two. 4) Physical activity--If we get enough warning (storm or fireworks) we arrange a very intense playdate with his Silver 3.5 y/o SP friend Toby. If this is done at least 8-10 hours ahead, he can usually sleep through it. I'll also give him 30 minutes or frisbee as he's very good at bringing it back to me. This idea shows promise, and incorporated with a few other methods, can definetly be part of the total solution. You might try inviting the playmate over DURING the storm, something to get his mind off the problem at hand, covered under Alternage Behaviours in the book. If you and the other dogs are having a huge party during the storm, use the jealousy or "me too," factor to invite/encourage Heth to take part in the fun. 5) Ice Cubes--10:30pm July 5th, neighbors who attended community/DC firework events on the 4th decided to host their own "spectaculars". Out of desperation, I was rubbing this on Heth's neck & head to helm calm him down. Much too late for any of the above to help, so Frances & I cuddled him and I was really surprised to see that it did help to a degree. I have no explanation for the ice cubes, except that maybe from cooling the major blood vessels on the head and neck, then cooled the blood to the brain, and induced a sort of "brain hypothermia" and reduced the reaction? (not really, but it's the only thing I could think of) In any case, Rule # 1 - NO CUDDLING DURING THE BAD BEHAVIOUR! Truly, I know it sounds harsh, because that's what your "human" instinct tell you to do, but dogs just don't work the same way as humans. Second thing, there is a book out there called "How Dogs Learn," by Mary R. Burch Ph.D., and Jon S. Bailey, Ph.D. I got my copy at PetsMart. Although it is a bit technical at times, I was able to understand it, so you should have no problems. Overall, it is a marvelous explanation of Operant and Respondent Conditioning, and how the canine brain processes information. It talks about positive vs. negative reinforcement/punishment, and also, the part you're interested in, extinction of undesired behaviours through several methods. There is so much information in the book, I really can't even begin to give you any bits of it in an email, but I strongly recommend reading the book, as it addresses many problem behaviours in dogs. Some things I would try are this. First, IGNORE the fearful behaviour at ALL times. Then, try redirecting. I know it will be difficult and probably not show much result at first, but patience, determination and perserverance will win in the end. Especially since he is 3 yrs. old, and the pattern is probably very hard-wired by now. During the storm or any offensive noise, HAVE A PARTY. Get out the favorite toys and PLAY with the other dogs. Totally ignore Heth, unless he wants to join in the playing. Get out the favorite treats, and I mean really SPECIAL treats. If it takes Filet Mignon and Lobster Tail to get him interested, by gum, that's what I'd use, at least for a while. Introduce alternate behaviours to replace the fearful behaviours. Using the really special treats, do some obedience exercises or seek the toy, or just plain ol' parlor tricks, shake, roll-over, sit up, etc. Give him something positive to DO, other than shake, shiver and hide. I've seen from experience that it will take some time to get results. First, by starting with ignoring the undesired behaviour, NO CUDDLING during the storms or banging, you may not notice results. Then, during Extinction of a behaviour, dogs will have what's called an Extinction Burst, where the behaviour actually gets worse before it fades completely. Like a puppy protesting being in a crate, the howls start lowly at first, then escalate until he finally gives up....that is, if no one "comes to his rescue" and lets him out of the crate while he's being "bad." Same thing for most behaviours. You must IGNORE it for it to extinguish. If you get the book and read it, once we're both on the same page, (so to speak) I'd be glad to help you work out a plan for dealing with the behaviour. It's too hard to explain everything here, if you don't know where I'm coming from. :-) The only other things that I can think of trying is to 1) Purchase a couple of CD's. One of them a "Nature" thing like 'Thuderstorms in The Grand Canyon' and another similar recording of fireworks and just playing them (for very shorts periods at 1st) at random times during the day and graduating to just reading the Sunday paper with all of the poodles with us listening to an hour of these CD's. This approach is addressed in the book under the sections on Habituation, Systematic Desensitization, and counter-conditioning, or the alternate behaviours. There are several marvelous case studies/explanations of dealing with fear/phobias in dogs and humans. These are a reasonable substitute for the noise, but the actual conditions of a storm affect dogs more, such as the barometric pressure, heat, humidity, etc. Like how dogs can predict earthquakes and things like that long before they happen, there are several environmental things that you can't control. That's why the recommendation of the alternate behaviours during the actual storm and redirecting. Instead of reading the paper during the tapes, start the routine of playing with them and feeding, to carry over during the actual storm. Start the tapes softly and for short sessions, and then gradually increase the volume and YOU have to be very upbeat, positive and happy the whole time. 2) Have him wear one of those lycra body suits that field people use for their poodles (burrs/ticks). Something along the idea of the Tellington Touch technique of wrapping the dogs torso in an effort to calm them down. This is also an excellent idea, to incorporate along with the other things. However, I would use this in the later stages, after he learns to relax a bit first. If you'd start with this right away, it would essentially be "forcing" him to lay down, which may cause even more anxiety when usually he'd be pacing and worrying, and then the massage would be interpreted as "praise" or cuddling, and actually still reinforcing the fear response. Just wearing the suit probably wouldn't have much of an effect, but introducing massage later would probably be a wonderful idea. Hmmmm.....I think if I got a massage during my dentist appointment, I sure wouldn't mind it as much. (my phobia) ;-) I definetly have empathy for you in this situation, but know that the ability to vent and incoming support is only a few keystrokes or a phonecall away. :-) My noise-sensitive dog has made marvelous strides, but the densitization process is continuing for the rest of his life. Once they are habituated to the noise, you must constantly maintain. It is work, but for the ones you love, it is worth it. Good luck, and if there's anything I can do to help, please don't hesitate to ask. Michelle and the SAR Poodles Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.3]) by mta005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709233442.OKLL4656.mta005.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:34:42 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc004pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-1018-22-1018-6928-1-1089416082> for mta005.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:34:42 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69NW2fR027448; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:32:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69NW1jG027440 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:32:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RICOPOOS@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 9.1d2.2587769e (3699) for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:31:53 -0400 (EDT) From: RICOPOOS@aol.com Message-ID: <1d2.2587769e.2e2084e9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:31:53 EDT To: psg@poodle.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 Subject: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 It has been interesting seeing how many of the people on this list deal with the fears their dogs have, such as thunder, fireworks and other loud noises. It is amazing how much our society today has influenced what we use as solutions to any certain problem. I notice how many flat out say, "drug him," whether it be with natural stuff like Rescue Remedy, or "harder" stuff like Valium, etc. And how few are actually interested in finding out why and what is causing the problem, and fixing the root of the behaviour, if possible through modification and training. Or simply say that there's nothing that can be done, he was born this way and we can't change it. And even more, for breeders, this seems to be a fairly major temperament issue, and should be considered along with every other health/breeding issue. Just as bad hips will cost an owner loads of money in medication, etc, it seems that Prozac and Valium cost as well, and could be eliminated. There is a book in circulation titled "How Dogs Learn," by Mary Burch and Jon Bailey, Ph.D's. It is an excellent work on operant and respondent conditioning, and dealing with many behaviours that dogs exhibit. It contains many thorough explanations and case studies of dogs with "problem" behaviours. Some caused by man, some inherent, like the noise phobia. My personal approach is that I hesitate to give any sort of "drugs," natural or not, til the last possible resort. I don't even like taking Motrin or aspirin for a headache if I can avoid it. Using the desensitization, habituation and counter-conditioning techniques is a lot of work, requiring patience, determination and perseverance, but I believe that even the most phobic dog can achieve some progress using them, and be spared the negative effects of drugs to some degree. Many will argue that they've known dogs that could not be cured, especially with the ignoring the behaviour approach. Most people don't understand how long it takes for a behaviour to extinguish using this approach, and what the extinction burst is. That is, a behaviour actually gets worse before it gets better. Like the puppy crying/whining when left in a crate, or dogs that beg for food, the bad behaviour escalates to a point that is nearly unbelieveable, and that's usually when most people come to the conclusion that it can't be cured and give in. And that just more firmly cements the behaviour, and now at a higher intensity than it was before. It is a wonderful book, and I highly recommend it for anyone who is interested in learning more about the processes of a canine brain and how to create, elicit or extinguish behaviour in dogs. Michelle and the Ricochez Gang ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.3]) by mta016.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709234055.OLBR4222.mta016.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:40:55 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc004pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-1015-46-1015-6972-1-1089416454> for mta016.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:40:55 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69Nc67h028047; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:38:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i69Nc47Z028036 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:38:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from computer (pcp09872647pcs.ewndsr01.nj.comcast.net[68.39.179.211]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004070923375801500hss0oe>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:37:58 +0000 Message-ID: <01aa01c4660d$bf603da0$d3b32744@computer> From: "Gayle Roberson" To: "psg" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:37:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: PSG: Melatonin X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Judy~ I have also had excellent results with Melatonin. I heard about it at one of Watchung Mtn Poodle Club's eye clinics. We were sitting in a dark room, each waiting his/her turn to see Dr Aguirre. Discussing all kinds of stuff, including T-storms, and this small voice said: Melatonin. Huh? several people said. Perhaps she had also read the Dr Dodds report. I used it on Maybelline, who would crawl up my leg during a t-storm. It worked!! Now, she is 11, perhaps a little deaf, maybe she has gotten over it, but she is no longer bothered by t-storms! On a dog with significant thunder phobias, I would try Melatonin, pin a t-shirt tightly to the body, and probably even dose the dog with Rescue Remedy and Elm essence (which is said to be for 'unknown fears'). Couldn't hurt, and none of them would work against the others. What I would not do is "koochie poo" try to comfort the dog. I think it would tell the dog I agree with the fear. I would also play Neal Diamond tapes, real loud; they're pretty cheerful, and you can dance to it! Gayle Roberson www.pocoapocopoodles.com Life Without A Poodle Is Like Dancing Without Music. You *Can* Do It, But Why? ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([192.168.1.4]) by mta014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040709233716.OGPU10554.mta014.verizon.net@atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:37:16 -0500 Received: from atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net (207.217.120.179) by sc013pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-23991-198-23991-870-1-1089416235> for mta014.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:37:16 -0500 Received: from user-38lc2er.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.9.219] helo=lightspeed.net) by atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj4va-0002mn-00 for franbill@verizon.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:37:15 -0700 Message-ID: <40EF2CEE.7020407@lightspeed.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:40:30 -0700 From: Diane Whitehouse Organization: SCAMP User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (nscd2) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: franbill@verizon.net Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth References: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hi Bill, Went through this with a friend's Golden. The things that worked with her: 1. Do not reinforce the fear. Don't sympathize, don't cuddle....you're saying "Oh, it's awful, and I know you're scared and you are right, it's very, very bad and we are all scared." You want to say "Silly boy! Nothing to worry about!" 2. The body suit, or a snug wrapping (they started with a teeshirt and then wrapped over it with the old fashioned ace bandages, making poor Peaches into something resembling a mummy......but it was VERY effective. 3. They then would crate her in their den --no outside walls which helped muffle the sounds-- leave a light on (they swore she was better with a light on) and classical music playing at a normal level. Hope you come up with something that works for Heth! Hugs, -- Diane and the Casual Country Poodles, SunGen, Cassie, Angie, Mandy, and Pshanel plus Clyde, honorary Poodle Return-Path: Received: from mailbox.bellatlantic.net ([138.88.122.7]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710000526.EPXV27801.out008.verizon.net@mailbox.bellatlantic.net>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:05:26 -0500 Message-ID: <40EF33AD.EB030369@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:09:18 -0400 From: franbill@bellatlantic.net Reply-To: franbill@verizon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RICOPOOS@aol.com CC: "!franbill@verizon.net" Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth References: <50.2e522c35.2e207cba@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6ECE8D5A445E5F137472BF2C" X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [138.88.122.7] at Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:05:04 -0500 X-Original-From: franbill@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Michelle & Michael Mace 27809 Hwy. 107 Cabot, AR 72023 Michelle, I hadn't intended to respond (yet) to many the replies to my post. I am getting a LOT of public & private emails 36 so far, and the suggestions are most encouraging. At a later point, I'll send a summary of what seems like practical ideas others might like to try. Your incredibly kind & in-depth reply deserves an immediate "thankyou". What wonderful suggestions!! You can be sure that we will be trying most of them. The reason that your addy is at the top of this email (and copied to myself as well) is so that I can place a printed copy next to my baking supplies, so that the next time I bake......... :o)) Thanks again Michelle. SPD to you, Mike & your RICOPOOS--Bill & family ======================================================================== RICOPOOS@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 7/9/04 2:57:40 PM Central Daylight Time, franbill@bellatlantic.net writes: We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black SP Heth's horrific reactions. We know that many of you currently deal with this, and some have even arrived at solutions which actually work. CookieMan and Heth, I had a PWD/Border Collie that was noise sensitive, especially gunshots and vaccuum cleaners. He didn't seem to mind fireworks or storms as much, it just seemed to be the others more so.This was a dog I was trying to train for SAR, and to have a dog be disturbed by noises when working SAR is not a good thing, so I had to really work to get him over this.There is no one "magic solution," but rather a combination of things, and a HUGE dose of patience and determination to have the dog get better. What really has me (Bill) upset is that body shakes so violently & his heart pounds so strong against his chest that I fear he will have a heart attack or go into a seizure. The frightened/panicked look in his eyes makes us feel especially helpless. First thing, YOU have to become a STONE. I know it is hard to do, especially when you think your baby is "suffering," but you really have to put your emotions in check, and STOP feeling pity, helpless or aplogetic for the dog feeling that way. That's the first step.Healthy, normal dogs with strong hearts and no previous history of epilepsy or seizures have a 99.9 % chance of NOT having problems like this from a fear response. I'd be more worried about him expressing his anal glands or bladder or bowels involuntarily, that would come first, waaay before a stroke, heart attack or seizure. During the months of June-August, the metropolitan Washington, DC area experiences (almost daily) severe thunderstorm activity. The typical 5-day forecast is: "The '3-H's' - Hot, Hazy, Humid followed by late afternoon thunderstorms. The storm cells can produce tornadic like effects. I know exactly the conditions, only here in Arkansas, it's April through October, with actual tornados happening just about weekly. :-) Fireworks are set off by individuals in neighborhoods year round for such events as New Years, High School/College Graduation parties, July 4, big sports events (World Series, Super Bowl, NBA), and of course loud highly-attended parties back yard or neighborhood parties. We have many local Rednecks that shoot fireworks just about daily for no other reason than they're born pyromaniacs. :-) And don't even get me started on gunshots and loud cars, most that run poorly and backfire very regularly. We live out in the country, sort of, and there is a pond in nearly every backyard within a five mile radius. These Rednecks with their shotguns and other firearms, shooting at snakes and snapping turtles every night just for fun. Some people just don't understand, live and let live. At the 1st faint sound of distant thunder/or explosions, Heth looks up with wild/panic and starts his nervous pacing and running around. When the real noise kicks in, no amount of cuddling will calm him down. Okay, remember, FIRST thing you have to do is STOP the cuddling. Any sort of attention is actually reinforcing the behaviour. Even negative attention is better than being ignored, to a dog, so first, IGNORE the behaviour.As I said before, it will probably require a combination of several things to extinguish the behaviour, so I will list the things I think will help, in no particular order. OK, so here are some of the things we've tried: 1)The holistic vet-Chinese calming herb pills given over a 30 day period. No Help If it doesn't help, then scrap it and try another method. 2)Valerian Pills-Given 2-3 hours in advance. Does help for the less intense times True, Acepromazine does help, but it does nothing but mask the senses and the behaviour, not a solution for the long term behaviour modification. 3)Valerian Liquid / or Spray-- Acts much more quickly than pills and the earlier it's given, the better. Side effects can be upset/rumbling stomach. Again, not a long-term solution, and with negative side-effects. 4) Benadryal--He's 51# and we give him 2 pills (50mg) 2-3 hours before the storm to make him sleepy Thid does help if given early enough Same as previous two. 4) Physical activity--If we get enough warning (storm or fireworks) we arrange a very intense playdate with his Silver 3.5 y/o SP friend Toby. If this is done at least 8-10 hours ahead, he can usually sleep through it. I'll also give him 30 minutes or frisbee as he's very good at bringing it back to me. This idea shows promise, and incorporated with a few other methods, can definetly be part of the total solution. You might try inviting the playmate over DURING the storm, something to get his mind off the problem at hand, covered under Alternage Behaviours in the book.If you and the other dogs are having a huge party during the storm, use the jealousy or "me too," factor to invite/encourage Heth to take part in the fun. 5) Ice Cubes--10:30pm July 5th, neighbors who attended community/DC firework events on the 4th decided to host their own "spectaculars". Out of desperation, I was rubbing this on Heth's neck & head to helm calm him down. Much too late for any of the above to help, so Frances & I cuddled him and I was really surprised to see that it did help to a degree.I have no explanation for the ice cubes, except that maybe from cooling the major blood vessels on the head and neck, then cooled the blood to the brain, and induced a sort of "brain hypothermia" and reduced the reaction? (not really, but it's the only thing I could think of) In any case, Rule # 1 - NO CUDDLING DURING THE BAD BEHAVIOUR!Truly, I know it sounds harsh, because that's what your "human" instinct tell you to do, but dogs just don't work the same way as humans. Second thing, there is a book out there called "How Dogs Learn," by Mary R. Burch Ph.D., and Jon S. Bailey, Ph.D. I got my copy at PetsMart. Although it is a bit technical at times, I was able to understand it, so you should have no problems. Overall, it is a marvelous explanation of Operant and Respondent Conditioning, and how the canine brain processes information. It talks about positive vs. negative reinforcement/punishment, and also, the part you're interested in, extinction of undesired behaviours through several methods. There is so much information in the book, I really can't even begin to give you any bits of it in an email, but I strongly recommend reading the book, as it addresses many problem behaviours in dogs. Some things I would try are this. First, IGNORE the fearful behaviour at ALL times.Then, try redirecting. I know it will be difficult and probably not show much result at first, but patience, determination and perserverance will win in the end. Especially since he is 3 yrs. old, and the pattern is probably very hard-wired by now. During the storm or any offensive noise, HAVE A PARTY. Get out the favorite toys and PLAY with the other dogs. Totally ignore Heth, unless he wants to join in the playing.Get out the favorite treats, and I mean really SPECIAL treats. If it takes Filet Mignon and Lobster Tail to get him interested, by gum, that's what I'd use, at least for a while. Introduce alternate behaviours to replace the fearful behaviours. Using the really special treats, do some obedience exercises or seek the toy, or just plain ol' parlor tricks, shake, roll-over, sit up, etc. Give him something positive to DO, other than shake, shiver and hide. I've seen from experience that it will take some time to get results. First, by starting with ignoring the undesired behaviour, NO CUDDLING during the storms or banging, you may not notice results. Then, during Extinction of a behaviour, dogs will have what's called an Extinction Burst, where the behaviour actually gets worse before it fades completely. Like a puppy protesting being in a crate, the howls start lowly at first, then escalate until he finally gives up....that is, if no one "comes to his rescue" and lets him out of the crate while he's being "bad." Same thing for most behaviours. You must IGNORE it for it to extinguish. If you get the book and read it, once we're both on the same page, (so to speak) I'd be glad to help you work out a plan for dealing with the behaviour. It's too hard to explain everything here, if you don't know where I'm coming from. :-) The only other things that I can think of trying is to 1) Purchase a couple of CD's. One of them a "Nature" thing like 'Thuderstorms in The Grand Canyon' and another similar recording of fireworks and just playing them (for very shorts periods at 1st) at random times during the day and graduating to just reading the Sunday paper with all of the poodles with us listening to an hour of these CD's. This approach is addressed in the book under the sections on Habituation, Systematic Desensitization, and counter-conditioning, or the alternate behaviours.There are several marvelous case studies/explanations of dealing with fear/phobias in dogs and humans.These are a reasonable substitute for the noise, but the actual conditions of a storm affect dogs more, such as the barometric pressure, heat, humidity, etc. Like how dogs can predict earthquakes and things like that long before they happen, there are several environmental things that you can't control. That's why the recommendation of the alternate behaviours during the actual storm and redirecting. Instead of reading the paper during the tapes, start the routine of playing with them and feeding, to carry over during the actual storm.Start the tapes softly and for short sessions, and then gradually increase the volume and YOU have to be very upbeat, positive and happy the whole time. 2) Have him wear one of those lycra body suits that field people use for their poodles (burrs/ticks). Something along the idea of the Tellington Touch technique of wrapping the dogs torso in an effort to calm them down. This is also an excellent idea, to incorporate along with the other things. However, I would use this in the later stages, after he learns to relax a bit first. If you'd start with this right away, it would essentially be "forcing" him to lay down, which may cause even more anxiety when usually he'd be pacing and worrying, and then the massage would be interpreted as "praise" or cuddling, and actually still reinforcing the fear response. Just wearing the suit probably wouldn't have much of an effect, but introducing massage later would probably be a wonderful idea.Hmmmm.....I think if I got a massage during my dentist appointment, I sure wouldn't mind it as much. (my phobia) ;-) I definetly have empathy for you in this situation, but know that the ability to vent and incoming support is only a few keystrokes or a phonecall away. :-) My noise-sensitive dog has made marvelous strides, but the densitization process is continuing for the rest of his life. Once they are habituated to the noise, you must constantly maintain. It is work, but for the ones you love, it is worth it.Good luck, and if there's anything I can do to help, please don't hesitate to ask. Michelle and the SAR Poodles Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.3]) by mta012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710004447.QSGI8858.mta012.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:44:47 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc009pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-16905-137-16905-13088-1-1089420287> for mta012.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:44:47 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A0hIqa035328; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:43:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mxsf27.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf27.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.227]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A0hGLd035320 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:43:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mxip13.cluster1.charter.net (mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.143]) by mxsf27.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6A0k8md005044 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:46:08 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO pendlay) (68.114.164.255) by mxip13.cluster1.charter.net with SMTP; 09 Jul 2004 20:43:10 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.81R,160,1083556800"; d="scan'208"; a="99281689:sNHT16953880" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <40EF3BA1.000016.01868@PENDLAY> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:43:13 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Mailer: IncrediMail (3001487) From: "Claudia" References: <1d2.2587769e.2e2084e9@aol.com> To: Subject: Re: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears X-FID: PLAINTXT-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 I wonder how many dogs are afraid of thunder and fireworks and gunfire because of owners reactions when they were small puppies? I know it certainly isn't all of them but I am curious how much of it is conditioning, the first 4th of july or thunderstorm when the pup is little and the owner sees the pup startle at the noise and immediately comforts it so the pup associates that noise with being cuddled and comforted. I have never had a dog with the problem so I am certainly no expert, my Great Dane puppies went everywhere with us and at that time in our lives what we did was drag race so they grew up at the drag strip. By the time they were grown they were absolutely steady when a fuel motor fired up and I had one male that would try to drag me in the direction of a top fuel or funny car as soon as he got a whiff of nitro methane. When he was in the 9 to 12 month puppy class we went to a specialty show that was held at the Los Angeles Police Academy and he was one of very few dogs that didn't freak out when they started target practice not far from where the show was being held. When we had coonhounds we did hunt them so they were very used to gun fire, to them that noise meant there would be a racoon on the ground for them soon. My husband at that time was a competition trap shooter and we were meeting someone after shooting to breed our best bitch so we took her to the range with us, she was used to one or two rifle shots but not a line of 30-40 men with shotguns shooting a wink (if the first shooter misses the bird the next one in line fires until someone hits it or it hits the ground), at first she startled and then her eyes lit up and she knew there would be a coon to kill soon. You should have seen the look on her face when there was no coon it was pure disgust, all those men with guns and not one of them could hit that coon, they were absolutely worthless in her mind. My Rat Terrier grew up at the range and LOVES fireworks, she all but ooooos and ahhhhhs over them so we actually buy them for her. I wondered how the poodle would take them and last year as a small pup she wasn't thrilled but not terrified so after holding her so she could watch a few from a very safe distance I put her in the house. This year I took them both out on leashes and she watched with tail wagging for a few minutes and then was bored and found it more fun to hunt bugs and totally ignored the fireworks. Both girls bark at thunder and get excited and run to the door and back to me because they want to go outside and see the fireworks. I really wonder how many dogs are inadvertently trained to fear loud noises by well meaning owners. Claudia -------Original Message------- From: RICOPOOS@aol.com Date: 07/09/04 19:33:32 To: psg@poodle.org Subject: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears It has been interesting seeing how many of the people on this list deal with the fears their dogs have, such as thunder, fireworks and other loud noises. It is amazing how much our society today has influenced what we use as solutions to any certain problem. I notice how many flat out say, "drug him," whether it be with natural stuff like Rescue Remedy, or "harder" stuff like Valium, etc. And how few are actually interested in finding out why and what is causing the problem, and fixing the root of the behaviour, if possible through modification and training. Or simply say that there's nothing that can be done, he was born this way and we can't change it. And even more, for breeders, this seems to be a fairly major temperament issue, and should be considered along with every other health/breeding issue Just as bad hips will cost an owner loads of money in medication, etc, it seems that Prozac and Valium cost as well, and could be eliminated. There is a book in circulation titled "How Dogs Learn," by Mary Burch and Jon Bailey, Ph.D's. It is an excellent work on operant and respondent conditioning, and dealing with many behaviours that dogs exhibit. It contains many thorough explanations and case studies of dogs with "problem" behaviours. Some caused by man, some inherent, like the noise phobia. My personal approach is that I hesitate to give any sort of "drugs," natural or not, til the last possible resort. I don't even like taking Motrin or aspirin for a headache if I can avoid it. Using the desensitization, habituation and counter-conditioning techniques is a lot of work, requiring patience, determination and perseverance, but I believe that even the most phobic dog can achieve some progress using them, and be spared the negative effects of drugs to some degree. Many will argue that they've known dogs that could not be cured, especially with the ignoring the behaviour approach. Most people don't understand how long it takes for a behaviour to extinguish using this approach, and what the extinction burst is. That is, a behaviour actually gets worse before it gets better. Like the puppy crying/whining when left in a crate, or dogs that beg for food, the bad behaviour escalates to a point that is nearly unbelieveable, and that's usually when most people come to the conclusion that it can't be cured and give in. And that just more firmly cements the behaviour, and now at a higher intensity than it was before. It is a wonderful book, and I highly recommend it for anyone who is interested in learning more about the processes of a canine brain and how to create, elicit or extinguish behaviour in dogs. Michelle and the Ricochez Gang ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.socal.rr.com ([192.168.1.2]) by mta013.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710015324.NFMT23677.mta013.verizon.net@ms-smtp-03-eri0.socal.rr.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:53:24 -0500 Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.socal.rr.com (66.75.162.135) by sc011pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-1007-128-1007-27368-1-1089424404> for mta013.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:53:24 -0500 Received: from GeishpistolriverGrouch (cpe-24-161-159-84.hawaii.rr.com [24.161.159.84]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.socal.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6A1rMOD027166 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002401c46620$aee0ef20$549fa118@GeishpistolriverGrouch> From: "Claire" To: Subject: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:53:22 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C465CC.DCC99A30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 Disposition-Notification-To: "Claire" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Mozilla-Status2: 00800000 Hi Bill, I heard about this product awhile ago. Don't know anyone who uses it so I couldn't tell you if it worked or not, but thought you might want to read about it. You might want to give it a try. http://www.alldogsschool.com/inthenews.htm Claire Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.4]) by mta017.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710023820.TMXE27874.mta017.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:38:20 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc005pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-2138-6-2138-6981-1-1089427100> for mta017.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:38:20 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A2a6uP048515; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:36:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.138]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A2a4Nm048507 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:36:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Burch1 (dhcp065-026-176-160.indy.rr.com [65.26.176.160]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6A2ZwIb008813; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <02d801c46626$a31cf1b0$a0b01a41@Burch1> From: " Judy Burch" To: "Gayle Roberson" , "psg" References: <01aa01c4660d$bf603da0$d3b32744@computer> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:35:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Cc: Subject: PSG: Re: Melatonin X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 >>Discussing all kinds of stuff, including T-storms, and this small voice said: Melatonin. Huh? several people said. Perhaps she had also read the Dr Dodds report. I used it on Maybelline, who would crawl up my leg during a t-storm. It worked!! Now, she is 11, perhaps a little deaf, maybe she has gotten over it, but she is no longer bothered by t-storms!<< That has been the same outcome with Rocky, he no longer needs it. It's easy to sit back and say poo-poo to those that use 'drugs', but when you have a dog that is terrified by storms, you are willing to try something that you know has worked for others. If I was waiting on behavior modification with him, I think I still would be waiting. This helped him sleep through a storm (at night when we were in bed anyway) and nap through one during the day. It gave him some peace from the terrors that came with a storm. Like you, I never coddled him through a storm, I always told him what fun the storms were. It wasn't til we had one horrible, frightening-loud storm that his fears developed. My other two do/did not have t-storms fears, but if they did, I know what relief a dose of melatonin is and that in time, *somehow* through its use these fears abide. Judy Judy Burch sburch@indy.rr.com OTCh Pepper 4-10-88---5-20-03 Rocky UD 13 yr old male, silver miniature poodle Boomer UD 6 yr old male, black miniature poodle with Idiopathic Epilepsy Brownsburg, IN ****Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened**** ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.2]) by mta018.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710024935.TROM26693.mta018.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:49:35 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc017pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-3361-80-3361-71021-1-1089427775> for mta018.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:49:35 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A2ls6P049719; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:47:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.136]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A2lqOt049713 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:47:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Burch1 (dhcp065-026-176-160.indy.rr.com [65.26.176.160]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6A2lmlq018207; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <031f01c46628$497efac0$a0b01a41@Burch1> From: " Judy Burch" To: "Claudia" , References: <1d2.2587769e.2e2084e9@aol.com> <40EF3BA1.000016.01868@PENDLAY> Subject: Re: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:47:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Cc: X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 >>I wonder how many dogs are afraid of thunder and fireworks and gunfire because of owners reactions when they were small puppies? I know it certainly isn't all of them but I am curious how much of it is conditioning, the first 4th of july or thunderstorm when the pup is little and the owner sees the pup startle at the noise and immediately comforts it so the pup associates that noise with being cuddled and comforted. I have never had a dog with the problem so I am certainly no expert, my Great Dane puppies went everywhere with us and at that time in our lives what we did was drag race so they grew up at the drag strip.<< Good question Claudia. I can only speak for my three. Two of them have/had no fears at all of loud noises no matter the source. Rocky has always been sound sensitive, BUT never to thunderstorms. As puppies, I always hold the puppy near a window during a thunderstorm and act happy with each bolt of lightning and clap of thunder. It wasn't til he was around 5 or 6 (maybe older) that we had a near tornado which caused many limbs to down in our and surrounding yards. The storm was very scary with lots of thunder and lightning. After *that* storm, his fears developed and no amount of "wow, wasn't that fun" could bring him out of it. Judy Judy Burch sburch@indy.rr.com OTCh Pepper 4-10-88---5-20-03 Rocky UD 13 yr old male, silver miniature poodle Boomer UD 6 yr old male, black miniature poodle with Idiopathic Epilepsy Brownsburg, IN ****Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened**** ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from web13202.mail.yahoo.com ([192.168.1.3]) by mta002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710030507.UIIX27527.mta002.verizon.net@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:05:07 -0500 Received: from web13202.mail.yahoo.com (216.136.174.187) by sc004pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <3-1017-78-1017-7299-1-1089428707> for mta002.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:05:07 -0500 Message-ID: <20040710030506.84541.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.21.104.245] by web13202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:05:06 PDT Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:05:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Angela Spitaletto Subject: PSG: Help for Heth To: franbill@bellatlantic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hi Bill & Fran, I use Melatonin, I give two 3 mg tablets when she started to get restless. Vashra would come up to me and put her body across mine and I would ask her if she wanted her medicine and she would go and sit where the Melatonin was. I would just give her the tablets in some cheese and she would go in her corner and sleep which was great. There is a jacket you can buy him, it is about $60 and it acts as a buffer for the electrical current they feel. I have to tell you that the last litter I had last June went crazy during one electrical storm, the pups were all crying and squirming around, I covered them with a blanket and they quieted down. You might be able to take Heth, give him Melatonin, put him in his crate and then cover it - try it -it might work for you. Take care, Angela __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.3]) by mta002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710033330.UZPB27527.mta002.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:33:30 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc019pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-1013-79-1013-46554-1-1089430409> for mta002.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:33:30 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A3Vw6w055473; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:31:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mxsf05.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf05.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.205]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A3VvOW055463 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:31:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mxip04.cluster1.charter.net (mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.134]) by mxsf05.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6A3YH2o021290 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:34:17 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO pendlay) (68.114.164.255) by mxip04.cluster1.charter.net with SMTP; 09 Jul 2004 23:31:52 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.81R,160,1083556800"; d="scan'208"; a="103574799:sNHT17351736" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <40EF632C.000020.01868@PENDLAY> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:31:56 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Mailer: IncrediMail (3001487) From: "Claudia" References: <031f01c46628$497efac0$a0b01a41@Burch1> To: Subject: Re: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears X-FID: PLAINTXT-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 That is a completely different story, he has good reason to fear that noise. That was a situation where you were also afraid (unless you're crazy...lol ) I can relate to that kind of storm fear, I loved thunderstorms and the wilder the better, I would go out on the porch where I could get the full effect until the evening our transformer and two other transformers close by took direct hits. This was pretty close to the house and it caused a lot of damage along with us being without power or water for 14 hours and my husband was a paraplegic who also relied on a c-pap machine to sleep safely. We were without a phone for 5 days and lived in a fairly remote area. Thunder storms have since scared me too, but I am getting better, from outright panic to apprehension and a bit jumpy now that I live in the south. The first storms of the season always scare the tar out of me until I get back in the swing of things and watch the doppler to see which direction it is coming from knowing from the west always peters out before it gets here, from the north is rarely bad, but from the south watch out. Claudia -------Original Message------- From: Judy Burch Date: 07/09/04 22:47:53 To: Claudia; psg@poodle.org Subject: Re: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears Good question Claudia. I can only speak for my three. Two of them have/had no fears at all of loud noises no matter the source. Rocky has always been sound sensitive, BUT never to thunderstorms. As puppies, I always hold the puppy near a window during a thunderstorm and act happy with each bolt of lightning and clap of thunder. It wasn't til he was around 5 or 6 (maybe older) that we had a near tornado which caused many limbs to down in our and surrounding yards. The storm was very scary with lots of thunder and lightning. After *that* storm, his fears developed and no amount of "wow, wasn't that fun" could bring him out of it. Judy Judy Burch sburch@indy.rr.com OTCh Pepper 4-10-88---5-20-03 Rocky UD 13 yr old male, silver miniature poodle Boomer UD 6 yr old male, black miniature poodle with Idiopathic Epilepsy Brownsburg, IN ****Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened**** ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.3]) by mta002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710035911.VPHL27527.mta002.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:59:11 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc018pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-1527-92-1527-72050-1-1089431951> for mta002.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:59:11 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A3l5iE057190; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.138]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A3l34I057182 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:47:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Burch1 (dhcp065-026-176-160.indy.rr.com [65.26.176.160]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6A3l0Ib002162 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <03bd01c46630$8e076850$a0b01a41@Burch1> From: " Judy Burch" To: References: <031f01c46628$497efac0$a0b01a41@Burch1> <40EF632C.000020.01868@PENDLAY> Subject: Re: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:46:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Claudia wrote: >>Thunder storms have since scared me too, but I am getting better, from outright panic to apprehension and a bit jumpy now that I live in the south. The first storms of the season always scare the tar out of me until I get back in the swing of things and watch the doppler to see which direction it is coming from knowing from the west always peters out before it gets here, from the north is rarely bad, but from the south watch out.<< And I'm sure just as I do, you act brave in front of the dogs or act as if nothing unusual is going on during a storm. I sometimes thing I should win an Academy Award for my t-storm performances! Yes, the *big* storm did scare me too! I just heard from one of my sons that the storms that went through today hit a large tree behind his law office. Thankfully his building (a renovated home) wasn't hurt, they were just without power for several hours. I might add that Rock wanted on my lap during the storm and then went to sleep. A far cry from how he used to react to storms. Judy Judy Burch sburch@indy.rr.com OTCh Pepper 4-10-88---5-20-03 Rocky UD 13 yr old male, silver miniature poodle Boomer UD 6 yr old male, black miniature poodle with Idiopathic Epilepsy Brownsburg, IN ****Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened**** ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com ([192.168.1.3]) by mta015.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710041437.VIMX413.mta015.verizon.net@imo-d20.mx.aol.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:14:37 -0500 Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (205.188.139.136) by sc009pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <4-16907-126-16907-13632-1-1089432877> for mta015.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:14:37 -0500 Received: from RICOPOOS@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.d6.ee92f92 (4196) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:14:26 -0400 (EDT) From: RICOPOOS@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:14:24 EDT Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth To: franbill@verizon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1089432864" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 In a message dated 7/9/04 7:06:01 PM Central Daylight Time, franbill@bellatlantic.net writes: Michelle, I hadn't intended to respond (yet) to many the replies to my post. I am getting a LOT of public & private emails 36 so far, and the suggestions are most encouraging. At a later point, I'll send a summary of what seems like practical ideas others might like to try. Your incredibly kind & in-depth reply deserves an immediate "thankyou". What wonderful suggestions!! You can be sure that we will be trying most of them. Bill, Fran and Poodles, You are most welcome for the suggestions, I hope they work and both you and Heth become more comfortable during storms and fireworks. :-) Let me know how everyone is progressing, we'll be rooting for your success. :-) Michelle and the Ricochez Gang Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.3]) by mta017.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710042450.WAUD27874.mta017.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:24:50 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc018pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-1526-85-1526-70042-1-1089433490> for mta017.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:24:50 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A4Kvrt060732; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:20:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A4Kt0W060720 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:20:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RICOPOOS@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 9.148.2def6b63 (4196) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:20:47 -0400 (EDT) From: RICOPOOS@aol.com Message-ID: <148.2def6b63.2e20c89f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:20:47 EDT Subject: Re: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears To: psg@poodle.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.4 X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 In a message dated 7/9/04 7:43:39 PM Central Daylight Time, cpendlay@charter.net writes: I really wonder how many dogs are inadvertently trained to fear loud noises by well meaning owners. I'm sure it is a lot, and not just loud noises, but also other situations, like going to the groomer or the vet. Clients tell me that their dogs start shaking three blocks away, so I know they're picking up on vibes from the owners. Vets hear the same thing all the time as well. Michelle ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from mjm-law02.thecomputerguymd.com ([192.168.1.3]) by mta008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710042616.WPVY24228.mta008.verizon.net@mjm-law02.thecomputerguymd.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:26:16 -0500 Received: from mjm-law02.thecomputerguymd.com (24.35.9.43) by sc018pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <1-1526-157-1526-71954-1-1089433575> for mta008.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:26:16 -0500 Received: from gbbclaptop ([68.88.96.238]) by mjm-law02.thecomputerguymd.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68880U1000L100S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:19:34 -0400 From: victoriarose3@gbbcdesignworks.com (victoriarose3@gbbcdesignworks.com) To: , , "'PSG'" Subject: RE: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:27:15 -0500 Message-ID: <000e01c46636$307fde50$6401a8c0@gbbcaaac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill, Bonnie's reaction is not nearly so severe, but she does cower under my desk or get as close to me as possible during a thunderstorm. I started spraying her with a mix of bath oil and water, rubbing it into her fur, and then put one of Will's previously worn (and not yet washed) t-shirts on her and tie it at her waist to tighten it up. I also give her a bone to work on -- a yummy knuckle bone or a couple of rib bones or a nice marrow bone -- which helps take her mind off her troubles. If I don't have these, I give her a used marrow bone stuffed with peanut butter or cheese. She still stays close, but doesn't show as much distress. If she hadn't had such bad experiences with kennels, I'd tuck her into one of them for the storms and cover it over to make it more den-like. That's all I used to do years ago for a little mutt I had, and it worked quite well for her. Good luck finding a solution that helps Heth. Sande ;o) --------------------------------- On Friday, July 09, 2004 3:02 PM, franbill@bellatlantic.net wrote: We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black SP Heth's horrific reactions. We know that many of you currently deal with this, and some have even arrived at solutions which actually work. What really has me (Bill) upset is that body shakes so violently & his heart pounds so strong against his chest that I fear he will have a heart attack or go into a seizure. The frightened/panicked look in his eyes makes us feel especially helpless. Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.4]) by mta008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710043139.WTCY24228.mta008.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:31:39 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc013pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-23792-130-23792-71591-1-1089433899> for mta008.verizon.net; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:31:39 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A4TcPX061615; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:29:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mxsf04.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf04.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.204]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6A4TaBZ061602 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:29:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mxip12.cluster1.charter.net (mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.142]) by mxsf04.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6A4W6mZ028430 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:32:07 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO pendlay) (68.114.164.255) by mxip12.cluster1.charter.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2004 00:29:30 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.81R,160,1083556800"; d="scan'208"; a="105565346:sNHT16850208" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <40EF70AF.000022.01868@PENDLAY> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:29:35 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Mailer: IncrediMail (3001487) From: "Claudia" References: <148.2def6b63.2e20c89f@aol.com> To: Subject: Re: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears X-FID: PLAINTXT-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 That is why I asked the question, I have been a groomer for 31 years and have seen that over and over. Claudia -------Original Message------- From: RICOPOOS@aol.com Date: 07/10/04 00:23:14 To: psg@poodle.org Subject: Re: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears In a message dated 7/9/04 7:43:39 PM Central Daylight Time, cpendlay@charter.net writes: I really wonder how many dogs are inadvertently trained to fear loud noises by well meaning owners. I'm sure it is a lot, and not just loud noises, but also other situations, like going to the groomer or the vet. Clients tell me that their dogs start shaking three blocks away, so I know they're picking up on vibes from the owners. Vets hear the same thing all the time as well. Michelle ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net ([192.168.1.1]) by mta003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710091101.RLFT9578.mta003.verizon.net@granger.mail.mindspring.net> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:11:01 -0500 Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (207.69.200.148) by sc006pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-19912-77-19912-14139-1-1089450661> for mta003.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:11:01 -0500 Received: from user-11favka.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.245.126.138] helo=yourkuh1evx06w) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjDsq-0006T9-00 for franbill@verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:11:00 -0400 Message-ID: <003801c4665d$d259d1f0$bfa0fea9@yourkuh1evx06w> From: "C. A. McGinnis" To: Subject: Fw: Heth's reaction to thunder/fireworks Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:11:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01C4663C.4AF4BAC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Whoops - I punched in "cookieman" and didn't think to double check & make sure it was the RIGHT address ! it came up as your old addy! ----- Original Message ----- From: C. A. McGinnis To: franbill@bellatlantic.net Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 5:55 PM Subject: Heth's reaction to thunder/fireworks Hi Bill, So sorry to hear that one of your babies gets so un-nerved by thunder & other LOUD noises. I don't know if this would work for you, but what I do to help desensitize my pups to things like thunder and fireworks is use a starter pistol and lots of yummy cheese bits as treats. I'd fire the starter pistol (which sounds like a VERY loud cap gun), and the pups would drop their tails, hunch up and look around all frightened, at which point I'd talk real happy talk to them and pass out a piece of cheese (a favorite tidbit & doesn't cause diarrhea). I'd then wait until they are all happy & scampering about in the yard, and I'd do it again (maybe 2 or 3 quick shots) -- again, the tails would DROP, they'd look around for the big frightening noise that they are sure is coming to get them - and instead, mommy would be calling them with lots of happy noises and a piece of cheese. I tried to be very careful and not reward them for a fearful response (hence the happy talk - a little diversion tactic) I do not want to say "Oh, that's okay, you don't have to be afraid" in a soft, soothing tone that would be interpreted as a "good dog" response to the fear, and thereby reinforcing that it is okay to be frightened. Basically, what this turned out to be, was clicker training with a REAL loud noise. By the third or fourth day of this game, whenever they heard the bang of the pistol, they would come running up to me looking for their treat. It was no longer a scary thing for them, rather the sign of something good to come. We have been blessed with some WICKED storms recently, and I would purposely leave them outside to play as the storms started to rumble towards us - so they would hear the noise in the background, but it was a happy time with lots of happy treats. As it started to rain, and I had to bring them inside, and they heard the thunder - again, I'd pull out the cheese. BOOM (thunder) - zip--treat into the mouth. LOTS of wagging tails. There were a lot of fireworks all around (redneck central!) the whole weekend, and fortunately, the pups just ignore the bangs, or they look around to see if the crazy lady is there with treats for them. When I've had winter litters, I have used the thunderstorm CDs and would occasionally drop pans while it was on, for extra noise. If you would like to try the starter pistol, I'd be happy to send it up to you to use. Cathy Return-Path: Received: from n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([192.168.1.3]) by mta008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710102943.DOVF24228.mta008.verizon.net@n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:29:43 -0500 Received: from n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com (66.218.66.70) by sc019pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <4-1013-113-1013-46860-1-1089455383> for mta008.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:29:43 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-39444-1492-1089455383-FRANBILL=BELLATLANTIC.NET@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2004 10:29:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1089455383.160.96058.m12@yahoogroups.com> Mailing-List: list BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com; contact BestOfVariety-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 10 Jul 2004 10:29:43 -0000 From: BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com To: BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com Subject: [BestOfVariety] Digest Number 1492 Reply-To: BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/SKOolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> There are 2 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth From: FRANBILL@BELLATLANTIC.NET 2. Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth From: " Judy Burch" ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:01:31 -0400 From: FRANBILL@BELLATLANTIC.NET Subject: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth We need suggestions as to how to deal with 3yo Black SP Heth's horrific reactions. We know that many of you currently deal with this, and some have even arrived at solutions which actually work. What really has me (Bill) upset is that body shakes so violently & his heart pounds so strong against his chest that I fear he will have a heart attack or go into a seizure. The frightened/panicked look in his eyes makes us feel especially helpless. During the months of June-August, the metropolitan Washington, DC area experiences (almost daily) severe thunderstorm activity. The typical 5-day forecast is: "The '3-H's' - Hot, Hazy, Humid followed by late afternoon thunderstorms. The storm cells can produce tornadic like effects. Fireworks are set off by individuals in neighborhoods year round for such events as New Years, High School/College Graduation parties, July 4, big sports events (World Series, Super Bowl, NBA), and of course loud highly-attended parties back yard or neighborhood parties. In addition to the 1-3" firecrackers (which create a loud pop), noiselesss sky rockets, & "fountains", someone who has traveled to North & South Carolina will set off something which can create the noise & destruction of a 1/4" stick of dynamite. Our police are usually occupied with much more serious activity, or arrive too late to stop it. At the 1st faint sound of distant thunder/or explosions, Heth looks up with wild/panic and starts his nervous pacing and running around. When the real noise kicks in, no amount of cuddling will calm him down. OK, so here are some of the things we've tried: 1)The holistic vet-Chinese calming herb pills given over a 30 day period. No Help 2)Valerian Pills-Given 2-3 hours in advance. Does help for the less intense times 3)Valerian Liquid / or Spray-- Acts much more quickly than pills and the earlier it's given, the better. Side effects can be upset/rumbling stomach. 4) Benadryal--He's 51# and we give him 2 pills (50mg) 2-3 hours before the storm to make him sleepy Thid does help if given early enough 4) Physical activity--If we get enough warning (storm or fireworks) we arrange a very intense playdate with his Silver 3.5 y/o SP friend Toby. If this is done at least 8-10 hours ahead, he can usually sleep through it. I'll also give him 30 minutes or frisbee as he's very good at bringing it back to me. 5) Ice Cubes--10:30pm July 5th, neighbors who attended community/DC firework events on the 4th decided to host their own "spectaculars". Out of desperation, I was rubbing this on Heth's neck & head to helm calm him down. Much too late for any of the above to help, so Frances & I cuddled him and I was really surprised to see that it did help to a degree. The only other things that I can think of trying is to 1) Purchase a couple of CD's. One of them a "Nature" thing like 'Thuderstorms in The Grand Canyon' and another similar recording of fireworks and just playing them (for very shorts periods at 1st) at random times during the day and graduating to just reading the Sunday paper with all of the poodles with us listening to an hour of these CD's. 2) Have him wear one of those lycra body suits that field people use for their poodles (burrs/ticks). Something along the idea of the Tellington Touch technique of wrapping the dogs torso in an effort to calm them down. A VERY LARGE COOKIE Reward awaits someone with a solution which works. Thanks, Bill ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:33:55 -0500 From: " Judy Burch" Subject: Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth Bill I have had EXCELLENT results with Melatonin. Recently I have suggested it's use with several dogs with major thunderstorm phobias and their owners saw results on the very first use. The dogs still wanted to be by their humans, but the trembling, shaking and whining were gone. I have used this with Rocky after he developed t-storm fears after a near tornado years ago. After several uses, he now no longer needs it although he still does want to be near me. At only 12 pounds, I gave him a whole 3 mg tablet with great results. I did notice that if I gave this to him during the day, it made him sleepy, which was ok at night. The following post was on wellpet years ago. The *I* in the post is not me btw. Again, I have seen this help many dogs. ********** I finally got in contact with Dr. Aronson, who presented the Melatonin cases at Dr. Jean Dodds' seminar here in MA. Her study will not be published until summer in the journal of veterinary medicine, but she did give me some further information. She has found melatonin 80% successful in treating dogs with fear of loud noises, i.e., thunderstorms. She mentioned that it was also effective for epilepsy and a number of other conditions that allopathic vets use anti-depressants for. It produces the same results that an antidepressant does. Dr. Aronson said she doesn't see the need to keep up a regimen of anti-depressants when melatonin will work when needed. A dog would have to have over 100 milligrams of Melatonin before there was any adverse effect. Suggested dosage is: 20lbs or less 1 1/2 milligrams 40lbs - 100 lbs 3 milligrams over 100 lbs 6 milligrams This dosage can be given up to 3x's a day. When you know that a thunderstorm is approaching or there is the firstsign of a "rumble" start the dosage. Results are very fast with no side effects. *********** Judy Judy Burch sburch@indy.rr.com OTCh Pepper 4-10-88---5-20-03 Rocky UD 13 yr old male, silver miniature poodle Boomer UD 6 yr old male, black miniature poodle with Idiopathic Epilepsy Brownsburg, IN ****Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened**** ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BestOfVariety/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: BestOfVariety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.2]) by mta010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710121308.DHTH6316.mta010.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:13:08 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc011pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-1006-169-1006-28578-1-1089461587> for mta010.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:13:08 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AC7AJI014067; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:07:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AC77ZA014060 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:07:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from user-10lf7bp.cable.mindspring.com ([65.87.157.121]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjGdH-00077Y-00 for psg@poodle.org; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:07:07 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:06:25 -0400 From: Ann Addison To: PSG Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: PSG: loud noises X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 My Maggie is afraid of thunderstorms........but has not been this way very long. In August 2001, two trees in my front yard were hit by lightening and it jumped over to the front porch. I was lucky that the house didn't catch on fire. It zapped two TV's and three remote phones and the alarm system. Some of the boards across the front of the house had to be replaced and all of it had to be painted. Since then Maggie has been afraid of Thunder.......not before......I feel sure that the cause is the house being hit. ann Ann Addison Argenta Toy Poodles Columbia, South Carolina canicheaa@earthlink.net http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/9366 -- ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.2]) by mta018.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710121744.FCQC26693.mta018.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:17:44 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc001pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-14854-71-14854-13808-1-1089461863> for mta018.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:17:44 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6ACDhab014682; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:13:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6ACDf80014675 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:13:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Pudlelvr@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 9.103.4a1b0e89 (4340) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:13:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Pudlelvr@aol.com Message-ID: <103.4a1b0e89.2e213769@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:13:29 EDT To: psg@poodle.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5112 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.4 Subject: PSG: Re: Melatonin X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 In a message dated 7/9/2004 10:36:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, sburch@indy.rr.com writes: >> but when you have a dog that is terrified by storms, you are willing to try something that you know has worked for others. << I have been blessed with dogs who were never bothered by thunderstorms, although occasionally Cosette would get out of her bed during a severe storm and come over to my side of the bed, just for a little reassurance. The other night we had a severe thunderstorm that passed right over the house, with the lightning and thunder coming almost simultaneously. The crashing of thunder rattled the windows and seemed to shake the house and the phone would make little rings each time our line took a hit (which is why I always disconnect my modem from the phone jack when there's a storm). I woke up with a searing pain behind my eyes. I'm not normally prone to sinus headaches or anything like that and I wondered if it wasn't related to the storm -- perhaps changes in barometric pressure? As soon as the storm passed, so did the pain. Which got me wondering whether some animals might have physical reasons to dread storms. We have a Percheron who is one of the most composed and fearless horses I have ever known. However, as soon as a thunderstorm approaches, he turns into a 17:2 h, 1900 lb quivering mass of jelly. None of our other horses are particularly bothered by storms, but he takes no comfort from their calm. One day I was taking pictures in the barn and suddenly there he was, rocking back and forth, shaking, and hiding with his head in the corner. I realized that he probably associated the flash from the camera with lightning. It's easy to blame ourselves sometimes for things that go wrong with dogs since we share our lives so intimately. But I find that sometimes the horses are a reality check that they all have their own personalities and foibles that we may never fully understand. Mary Ann and Destiny ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.4]) by mta019.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710140703.YBME23640.mta019.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:07:03 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc022pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-21019-192-21019-6603-1-1089468422> for mta019.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:07:03 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AE1gIf025591; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:01:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AE1eCv025585 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from user-2ivfa8f.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.169.15] helo=infionline.net) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjIQ6-00009Y-00; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:01:38 -0400 Message-ID: <40EFF825.7F3A6597@infionline.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:07:35 -0400 From: Caroline Hair X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Claudia Subject: Re: PSG: dealing with dogs' fears/Storms References: <1d2.2587769e.2e2084e9@aol.com> <40EF3BA1.000016.01868@PENDLAY> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: psg@poodle.org X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 << I wonder how many dogs are afraid of thunder and fireworks and gunfire because of owners reactions when they were small puppies? >> Claudia- I think this is true in many cases, and the dog doesn''t have to be a puppy, either. Some years ago, I allowed one of my retired girls to live with some friends for several months, as their elderly standard had died, and they had a chronically ill child who was very upset. So Lara stayed with them until I had a litter. She was six years old, and had never been bothered at all by storms, which are loud and numerous here in the summer (Personally, I actually like thunder storms and my dogs seem not to notice them), but when she returned, she acted terrified of them! I later realized that at the first sign of thunder, my friend's kids began making soothing noises and telling her not to be afraid (as their old dog had been). This well meaning reassurance had taught this previously fearless poodle to fear storms. She really had strong physical reactions at the first hint of thunder. Dogs can learn this from other dogs, too, so I wanted to get her over it quickly, before any of the others picked it up. I put cotton in her ears, put her crate in a closet and put her in at the first sign of a storm and closed the door. Showing fear got her nothing but a boring time in a quiet, dark closet. It was a very stormy summer, and as she reacted less wildly, I first removed the cotton, then opened the closet door, then gradually moved her crate out of the closet. It took about a month to get her over it, and she never showed fear of storms again. I have noticed that sometimes an older dog who was never bothered by storms before shows fear, and my theory is that in that case, the dog's hearing has changed, and the storm sounds differently than before. Even in this case, the best reaction is no reaction at all. Just ignore it. I do think that there dogs, including poodles, that have an inherited fear of loud noises, but my experience is that even these can be desensitized to at least some degree. JMO! Caroline ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.3]) by mta008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710143050.ITUL24228.mta008.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:30:50 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc019pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <4-1013-176-1013-47899-1-1089469850> for mta008.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:30:50 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AEQEnt027947; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:26:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay15-f35.bay15.hotmail.com [65.54.185.35]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AEQCPR027933 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:26:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:26:06 -0700 Received: from 64.63.205.226 by by15fd.bay15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:26:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.63.205.226] X-Originating-Email: [kmandutwo@hotmail.com] X-Sender: kmandutwo@hotmail.com From: "vikki kauffman" To: psg@poodle.org Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:26:06 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2004 14:26:06.0769 (UTC) FILETIME=[D673EA10:01C46689] Subject: PSG: Fear of thunder and fireworks X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Someone wrote asking for ideas about getting their dog through storms and fireworks..... Just trying to 'think outside the box,' But how about trying ear plugs? Vikki, Corsa CGC, AX AXJ, Ferrous NAJ NA NJC (1998-2004), and TinTin JA, CGC, TD _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ­ FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.1]) by mta012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710153814.JZJR8858.mta012.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:38:14 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc016pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-1006-57-1006-49772-1-1089473894> for mta012.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:38:14 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AFWxHt035274; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:32:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AFWvQH035254 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:32:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from miki (c-24-118-198-6.mn.client2.attbi.com[24.118.198.6]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20040710153246011009jarle>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:32:46 +0000 Message-ID: <000b01c46693$28ed6a10$06c67618@miki> From: "Miki Danielson" To: Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:32:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: PSG: Re:dealing with dogs' fears X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 I've been reading these posts with great interest because for the first time in almost 7 years, my big guy Mike is now showing fear of loud bangs. I began desensitizing him to loud noises when he was very young and he never showed any fear. Among other things, each year we go to a Game Show and I always sit next to the skeet range for a while and watch the competition - no fear and lots of anticipation because it's next to a french fry tent and the boyz always get treats. But last year, on a camping trip right after July 4, some idiot in the park set off a huge "bomb" that was so loud we could feel the air move. We were aleady in my tent when it went off and we all flinched but neither Mike nor Tucker seemed frightened. My sister and her SP, Charley, were still sitting around the fire. Charley freaked and literally ripped through my tent screen to get to us. Mike seemed no worse for the wear until the 4th grew near this year. No one in the neighborhood set off firecrackers, but for about 4 days we could hear the muffled noise from the fireworks down at the river (@ 4 miles away). I could tell Mike was nervous when I left for work about the time the fireworks started (I work nights) but I acted as if it were no big deal. The fireworks are now over but he's still nervous when I leave, and lately he's started to spend time in the bathtub while I'm at work (footprints have given him away). So here's what I think has happened - Mike was initially startled at the big noise last year, but then associated it with fear when he saw how freaked Charley was. The muffled bangs this year made him nervous and because they always seemed to happen when I was leaving for work he's now associating me leaving at night with something fearful. It breaks my heart to see Mike in obvious distress but I force myself to ignore it and just continue on with our little rituals when I leave for work. The only change I've made is I've started to dip his big milk bone in peanut butter before I leave, thinking maybe a better distraction will move him on to associating my leaving for work with something especially tasty. We'll see how it works...... I guess we never stop training our poodles because, as with us, life happens to them and sometimes we need do more adjusting. Miki, Mike, & Tucker ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.4]) by mta020.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710173739.MVTZ12674.mta020.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:37:39 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc010pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <1-1005-2-1005-60886-1-1089481059> for mta020.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:37:39 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AHAGIZ045179; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:10:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AHAEjT045162 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:10:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 3sref ([161.184.50.26]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with SMTP id <20040710171008.KSVM24140.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@3sref>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:10:08 -0600 Message-ID: <002c01c46698$5e51d560$1a32b8a1@3sref> From: "Marly Harvey" To: Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:10:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Cc: Subject: PSG: Thunderstorms X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 >>>>>> It's easy to blame ourselves sometimes for things that go wrong with dogs > since we share our lives so intimately. But I find that sometimes the horses are > a reality check that they all have their own personalities and foibles that we > may never fully understand. That's very true Mary Ann. My toy is terrible in thunder storms. She is 4 now & wasn't always as bad as what she is. If we've had thunder and it's over, and I take her outside to do her business, it never fails. A plane will fly overhead and she is a quivering basket case again. She doesn't seem to differentiate, yet there is nothing else she is afraid of. As for those headaches, I never made the connection. I have been plagued with sore teeth from sinus pain this year. After having drought conditions for 2 years in a row, this year has been rainy & stormy. We haven't even seen summer yet. If barometer changes can affect humans this way which I know they can, I'd be willing to wager some animals suffer physically as well. I had never really thought of that. Marly ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.4]) by mta013.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710162752.FVDD23677.mta013.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:27:52 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc022pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-29462-54-29462-18821-1-1089476871> for mta013.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:27:52 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AGCqQc040080; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:12:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts12.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.141]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AGCndO040071 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:12:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([64.228.176.172]) by simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20040710161220.BWUK7058.simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@ns.sympatico.ca> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:12:20 -0400 Message-ID: <40F0157A.B2CA0BFE@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:12:42 -0400 From: Janis & Stan Bates Organization: Sandhill Standard Poodles X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-SYMPA (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-CA MIME-Version: 1.0 To: psg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: PSG: Cookieman and Heth X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: janis@sandhill.ca, stan@sandhill.ca List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 My Scarlett is also phobic about thunderstorms, fireworks and other sudden loud noises. She is of my own breeding and tested negative for sound sensitivity at 7 weeks as did her mother Lacy and several of Scarlett's offspring who are also terrified under the same conditions. Makes me wonder if it is an inherited problem. What hasn't worked for me is Rescue Remedy, Melatonin and wrapping. What has worked is a tablet of 25 mgm of acepromazine given at the first bang, as prescribed by my vet. The other thing that helps for time limited things like fireworks is to put Scarlett in the car and take her for a ride till it's over. For thunderstorms. the acepromazine and taking to her refuge, behind the shower curtain in the bathtub, seems to be calming within 15 minutes. I have 3 other dogs and none of them react in the slightest to the noise or to Scarlett's theatrics. It may be significant that they are offspring of a different mother from a different line. Janis ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from poodle.org ([192.168.1.2]) by mta017.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040710220944.SRRR27874.mta017.verizon.net@poodle.org>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:09:44 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (161.58.5.112) by sc007pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-22834-131-22834-10398-1-1089497383> for mta017.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:09:44 -0500 Received: from poodle.org (poodle.org [161.58.5.112]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AM5jOI075646; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:05:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by poodle.org (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6AM5dog075636 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:05:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-4.243.173.219.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net ([4.243.173.219] helo=[4.243.242.58]) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjPyU-0007Ta-00 for psg@poodle.org; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:05:38 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: slf373@pop.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200407092138.i69Lcvrq010689@poodle.org> References: <200407092138.i69Lcvrq010689@poodle.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:57:14 -0700 To: psg@poodle.org From: "Susan L. Fleisher" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: PSG: Thunderstorm and fireworks X-BeenThere: psg@poodle.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Poodle Support Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: psg-bounces@poodle.org Errors-To: psg-bounces@poodle.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 If you don't know in advance, or if loud noises are too common to keep the dog in a constant state of druggedness, be sure he has a guiet place to hide. A crate covered with blankets in the darkest, most soundproof room in the house will help. In summer, if you can keep the crate in a dark room with a noisy window A/C unit, he will stay cooler and the A/C will drown out much of the noise. Good luck. I feel for you. Kelly Kelly reminded me that I sleep with a white noise machine on in the bedroom. That would take care of masking the sound, completely, if you can stand it. Susan -- Susan L. Fleisher slf373@earthlink.net Berkeley, CA fax 501 621-7842 Kidney Disease in Dogs website: symptoms, diagnosis, treatment, management (medical and dietary), recipes, breed specific renal diseases, genetics, current research, bibliography and abstracts http://www.geocities.com/jjfleisher/ Juvenile Renal Disease (JRD) in Standard Poodles: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/9709/jrdsusanfleisher.html Clinical article on Juvenile Renal Disease (JRD) in Standard Poodles: http://www.vetprof.com/clientinfo/poodlerenal.html Juvenile and familial renal diseases in dogs: http://vetprof.com/clientinfo/juvenilerenal.html ___________________________________________________ PSG@poodle.org - The Poodle Support Group Sub/Unsub: http://poodle.org/mailman/options/psg List Info: http://poodle.org/mailman/listinfo/psg Return-Path: Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net ([192.168.1.1]) by mta003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040711000737.LDZM9578.mta003.verizon.net@granger.mail.mindspring.net> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:07:37 -0500 Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (207.69.200.148) by sc014pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-11675-1-11675-75176-1-1089504456> for mta003.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:07:37 -0500 Received: from user-1121sj4.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.32.242.100] helo=yourkuh1evx06w) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjRsV-0001Ec-00; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:07:35 -0400 Message-ID: <01cc01c466db$1335a410$bfa0fea9@yourkuh1evx06w> From: "C. A. McGinnis" To: , Subject: fears & possible suggestion Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:07:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01C9_01C466B9.8BD2FDE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Someone wrote asking for ideas about getting their dog through storms and fireworks..... Just trying to 'think outside the box,' But how about trying ear plugs? Someone on PSG suggested ear plugs . . . . got me thinking about something that I saw Adriano (Miyuki/Apex) do for a mini poodle at a particularly noisy show. He used a drop or two of lidocane ear drops to numb the ear, and a little bit of cotton to further muffle the noises. Really seemed to help the dogs he was showing that day. Sure hope you find something that works for poor Heth. Cathy ps - which is the correct e-mail addy for you? Return-Path: Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net ([192.168.1.3]) by mta017.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040711000736.VHZU27874.mta017.verizon.net@granger.mail.mindspring.net> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:07:36 -0500 Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (207.69.200.148) by sc009pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <2-16905-142-16905-15630-1-1089504456> for mta017.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:07:36 -0500 Received: from user-1121sj4.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.32.242.100] helo=yourkuh1evx06w) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjRsV-0001Ec-00; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:07:35 -0400 Message-ID: <01cc01c466db$1335a410$bfa0fea9@yourkuh1evx06w> From: "C. A. McGinnis" To: , Subject: fears & possible suggestion Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:07:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01C9_01C466B9.8BD2FDE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Someone wrote asking for ideas about getting their dog through storms and fireworks..... Just trying to 'think outside the box,' But how about trying ear plugs? Someone on PSG suggested ear plugs . . . . got me thinking about something that I saw Adriano (Miyuki/Apex) do for a mini poodle at a particularly noisy show. He used a drop or two of lidocane ear drops to numb the ear, and a little bit of cotton to further muffle the noises. Really seemed to help the dogs he was showing that day. Sure hope you find something that works for poor Heth. Cathy ps - which is the correct e-mail addy for you? Return-Path: Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com ([192.168.1.2]) by mta005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040711014411.XFLR4656.mta005.verizon.net@imo-d20.mx.aol.com> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:44:11 -0500 Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (205.188.139.136) by sc011pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <3-1008-10-1008-30535-1-1089510250> for mta005.verizon.net; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:44:11 -0500 Received: from KimsLdy@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.11b.343f344d (4529) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:44:06 -0400 (EDT) From: KimsLdy@aol.com Message-ID: <11b.343f344d.2e21f566@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:44:06 EDT Subject: Re: PSG: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth To: franbill@verizon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1089510246" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill, Melatonin worked for our Jasmine. App. 2 hours before a storm would arrive, she would start pacing and panting heavily and also trembling,a s she got older it got worse. The melatonin worked miracles for her. I cannot comment on others dosage , but I gave her 3, 3mg.tablets and within 20 -30 minutes she would calm right down and would sleep, but not like a drug induced sleep.The strange thing I also discovered, which is not a great alternative , is if it was not "pouring" rain , I would let her outside and she would calm down. If we had tornado warnings or watches or as the t-storm would move in, I would go outside with her and she would almost instantly start breathing easier. I have no scientific explanation for this, but it seemed to help her for some reason. So , I would give her the Melatonin and then sit outside with her and wait for the storm to arrive then 15 to 20 mins.later we would go back inside and she would be fine. Just my experience. good luck. Donna Jasmine (Grumpy Old Princess 08-31-1988 to 10-25-2003) Logan (Fence Jumping, patience trying,reformed canine good citizen) Lucky (Canine Good Citizen) Kim Ki-Oki Noel & Ki-Owa Loki (Watching from the Bridge) Return-Path: Received: from n41.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([192.168.1.4]) by mta013.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040711104704.CAFQ23677.mta013.verizon.net@n41.grp.scd.yahoo.com> for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:47:04 -0500 Received: from n41.grp.scd.yahoo.com (66.218.67.16) by sc013pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <3-23794-56-23794-87431-1-1089542824> for mta013.verizon.net; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:47:04 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-39444-1493-1089542824-FRANBILL=BELLATLANTIC.NET@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n41.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Jul 2004 10:47:04 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1089542824.122.41420.m12@yahoogroups.com> Mailing-List: list BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com; contact BestOfVariety-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 11 Jul 2004 10:47:04 -0000 From: BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com To: BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com Subject: [BestOfVariety] Digest Number 1493 Reply-To: BestOfVariety@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/SKOolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> There is 1 message in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth From: "Elizabeth Glew" ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:11:03 -0400 From: "Elizabeth Glew" Subject: Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth If you haven't tried Rescue Remedy, it's worth a shot. It's a homeopathic remedy made from flowers. There are several other "brands" available, but we have had best results with: Bach Original Flower Essences Rescue Remedy, made in England by Bach Flower Remedies Ltd. Give 3-5 drops at or before first signs of stress. Repeat as needed, as often as every 15 minutes if necessary. May be rubbed into inside of ears if difficult to give by mouth. Works great for humans too. We have found this helpful for our animals in stressful situations. Our Belgian male, Dancer, has also been afraid of thunderstorms and other "things that go boom." He feels better in some locations than others. It is helpful for him to go to the basement. His fear has decreased over time. He also seems to find it helpful to have some background noise like a window air conditioner or a loud fan. Here's a brainstorm -- have you tried earplugs? Best wishes to your whole family! Elizabeth [This message contained attachments] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BestOfVariety/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: BestOfVariety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Return-Path: Received: from web81307.mail.yahoo.com ([192.168.1.2]) by mta007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040711193732.TJVO28850.mta007.verizon.net@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:37:32 -0500 Received: from web81307.mail.yahoo.com (206.190.37.82) by sc017pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with SMTP id <2-3359-42-3359-80853-1-1089574652> for mta007.verizon.net; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:37:32 -0500 Message-ID: <20040711193732.36380.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.91.254.157] by web81307.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:37:31 PDT Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:37:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Mango Subject: t-Storms To: franbill@bellatlantic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-504523837-1089574651=:35824" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 I have used the herbal med. called calming aid to help some dogs and this has worked on some of them, it contains chamomile, which is a mild calming aid among other herbal rmemidies. I like it. I would also try the thunder storm tapes, since those things help people deal with it. You start out with low volume and increase time played and eventually loudness on a scale, and go around huming a happy tune for him letting him know it is alright with a storm going on...third thing insulate a music room with out windows and put him in it with low playing background music while a thunderstorm is happening. My birds go for the background noise and it calms them. I have recently become jumppy with a thunderstorm my self, so I put in some heavy duty earplugs. Maybe they will work for a dog too? They help me block it out. Do you have any inner rooms with no windows. I would try him there with the calming music and the calming aid herbal. while you are in the meantime using the desensiting with the low music on when you can, to have him adjust to it. Hope something helps you and him. Lucy Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com ([192.168.1.4]) by mta003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040712024251.STPK9578.mta003.verizon.net@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:42:51 -0500 Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (65.24.5.137) by sc022pub.verizon.net (MailPass SMTP server v1.1.1 - 121803235448JY) with ESMTP id <3-29463-177-29463-24043-1-1089600171> for mta003.verizon.net; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:42:52 -0500 Received: from Burch1 (dhcp065-026-176-160.indy.rr.com [65.26.176.160]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6C2gmVf012794 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0b5a01c467b9$ea472bc0$a0b01a41@Burch1> From: " Judy Burch" To: References: <40EEF99B.8D4F8ABF@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: Thunder Storms/Fire Works & Heth Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:42:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill I just had to share this post with you. I recently told someone on another list about Melatonin for her labs that are fearful during storms. Here's what she said: "Very interesting thing about the Melatonin. I have dosed Sassy and Scrapper for two storms this week. Yesterday (the second time) the storms rumbled loudly, so I dosed them - took a little out of Sassy's capsule so she didn't have the full 3 mgs. The storm petered off so I had two laid back dogs for the rest of the evening and no storm. Today we had thunder all over the place but the storms failed to produce rain and power outages. I didn't dose the dogs, but interestingly they both came into my computer room with me, Sassy under the desk and Scrapper to my right, snuggled close and went soundly to sleep as if they had their Melatonin! They were oblivious to the thunder... a week ago Sassy would have been in my lap and Scrapper would be barking and trembling. I really cannot believe it has worked that fast, but???" I hope you have just as much luck with it if you decide to try it. Judy [] HethsNoiseFears_July15.xls